Thoughts on organics

I was wondering what other chefs think about organics and some of the chef groups that are really promoting organics? I always found organics way to expensive to be using on a daily basis in the restaurant. Any thoughts?

[Chef Mark Hayes]

I agree it may be a little expensive to go
"all organic", but as it catches on it may not only be the way to go for the obvious health reasons, but also a new and more exciting way to market your offerings. I also believe we are on the beginning side of this trend, so as it goes with many other trends, organics may eventually become more feasible.

[shroomgirl]

I've been working with organic farmers for 3 years now... if you buy directly from the farmer it is cheaper and fresher than what you may have shipped across the country. Jean-George is opening an organic restaurant in NYC. Nora Poullian from DC has the first certified organic restaurant. The chefs I've met that are using local organic produce are the artisians.....Alice Waters, Rick Bayless, Nora,Greg Higgins, Susan Spicer
etc.....the ones that have menus change to reflect what walks in the back door. I've been to too many farmer conferences recently where the seed savers are really concerned that we're losing our heirloom varietals...60-70% of broccoli and cauliflower are gone......The full flavored tomatoes you get from your farmer may not be able to be shipped because the skin is so fragile and the flesh to juicy (what a problem!)These are wonderful, incredible,flavors that can only be hand picked.
Small sustainable farmers rule, 20000pigs are pollution, 200 pigs are fertilizer.
These guys are so into cause and affect of their actions. It is a joy to know them and work with them. It's fun teaching people how to cook with fresh produce and other than tenderloin cuts of meat. I'm rambling but this is very close to my heart. Icalled 30 farmers 3 years ago and 10 gave up the 100+ year old farm because they couldn't work it anymore, they are not marketers. They don't know how to approach chefs, many have no clue what their produce is worth.
I did a James Beard Picnic for 600 last year and ask a farmer (2 monthes out) to raise 20#
of baby potatoes....we tested 18 varieties of garlic to see which ones we wanted him to grow. This is too much fun...
Ann Cooper from Putney Inn and the Ross School NY cooks for 20,000 people for the Telluride film Fest and has farmer grow her chickens and eggs....truly amazing. It can be done with some effort, the end product will speak for itself.

[cookM]

Hey, I'm all for it. I buy mostly organic for myself, and I taste a difference. Taste a conventional carrot and an organic one side by side and you'll taste the diff. Chez Panisse has gone all organic, BTW. Sugar, vanilla, moo products...I do realize about the cost, though. Once, the catering company I worked for paid $70 for a case of asparagus.

[Nicko]

Organics are a tough issue in our industry, and one that often seems to get left behind. What I mean by that is that there seems to be a small band of chefs who are doing their best to incorporate more organic products into their menus, but I think it is a very small percentage. In my experience the problem with organics has always been two issues, the cost and consistency. Both of these are tough issues to resolve unless you have the time to actually work with a farmer and can take the time to develop a good relationship. Most chefs that I know do not have that luxury, especially the chefs who running multi-million dollar operations that are ordering cases and cases of tomatoes. I mean how do you resolve that issue Shroomgirl? I think what you are doing is great and I have worked in restaurants where we grew are own herbs, raised cows for the milk to make our own butter, and even raised pigs to make our own pancetta. It was one of the most incredible experiences of my life and it showed me a different level of food. But that seemed to me to be an exception to the rule. How do you bring organics into every restaurant so that it is economical for both the restaurant and the patron? This is a tough issue and I would really like to invite other chefs to share their opinions on the matter and how they are working with organics (or not working with organics).

------------------
Thanks,

Nicko
nicko@cheftalk.com

[shroomgirl]

Working with numerous farmers helps with the cases and cases of tomatoes.

Organics like anything is not for everyone...there will always be cooks/chefs/whatever that open a can or nuke a ready made product.Then those that make their own products from scratch. Working directly with the farmer cuts the costs of foods yet may add to the headache....if your already buying from many venders, farmers are not that big of a deal to use.
Some of the big places buy organic fancy stuff as garnishes. Bigger farms usually cannot afford the labor to hand harvest veggies. Mom and Pops still have labor problems yet with 3-4 acres can do intensive farming....The guy who makes the most at CBD farmers mkt in New Orleans has one acre and raises microgreens.
My farmers have no clue as to what they are and actually I had to show them that I really wanted BABY zucchini with the blossom still attached...and I really would buy their squash blossoms and corn smut. Crazy huh?!
***A friend has a huge 600# a week tomatoes
restaurant.. he just sat with a farmer told him how much he orders and the farmer brings in what he has every Tues...about 1/10. But I will guarantee next year he'll raise more.

[Nicko]

You know another interesting point Shroomgirl is that I do believe many chefs would love to use ogranic products in their restaurants. A big problem though is the people who are above the chef (owners, corporate headquarters. Nine times out of 10 these people are concerned more with the bottom line, than wether they are serving organic product or not.

------------------
Thanks,

Nicko
nicko@cheftalk.com

[shroomgirl]

Nicko~ you are still assuming that it is more exspensive to buy organics....when you buy directly from a farmer it may be cheaper than shipping special foods across the country. One of my friends bought heirloom tomatoes for $2.25 a pound and sold 35 tomato salads to 37 patrons one night...and was looking for more....It may be more exspensive on the front end, but waste is less, this stuff is picked that morning and will last 8days-2 weeks depending on what it is. Better taste, longer shelf life, special grows...win win win
Believe in it, then cook a dinner with local produce and share with the big wigs. Bottom line is not always cutting food costs. It's also price of dish/volume of business....promot it on your menu (tomatoes from Lober Farms) and patrons will love that you buy locally>
**I just read the NY Times this morning good article on "organic tomatoes" in the glossy section....with recipes...one really good tomato, one plate, one knife...cut tomato serve on plate/ says it all.

[This message has been edited by shroomgirl (edited August 27, 2000).]

[Nicko]

Point taken Shroomgirl, I think that chefs are becoming more aware of organics, and starting to incorporate them. After I posted my reply I relized that it is more likely to be laziness on a chefs part to not pursue organics (at least it was for me).

[Wambly]

You have made some great points for buying from your local farmers but said little about organics.

If you are comparing vegetables that were picked this morn to what you buy from a pruveyor, **** yes it is going to taste better.
The use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides has nothing to do with it.
Getting produce the day it is picked will also increase YOUR shelf life .. you eliminate the time the middleman has it in possession.

"Organic" to me is just another marketing ploy ... is like NOT adding lead to gasoline and charging more for it -- or using cremini and calling them baby portabello

BTW: I hope you are washing your organic produce as thoroughly as you did your reg produce ... I personaly would hate to give a customer ecoli becuase the cow dung fertilizer didn't get washed off those organic carrots in the salad



[This message has been edited by Wambly (edited August 28, 2000).]

[shroomgirl]

Ouch!!Boy I guess I didn't speak up about my farmers growing practices...sustainable. Multicrop rotation, chicken tractors, no growth hormones or antibiotics, Bats, birds, flowers other bugs eating bugs.....The guys I respect and buy from look at their total farm. They raise pigs to eat Johnson Grass rhisomes (sp?) then we get yummmy pork.
Most of my guys don't pay for OCIA because it's so exspensive. So they are not certified organic,BUT they are using organic practices. I talk to them, I visit their farms, I talk to others in organic supervisory positions.....John Stoessel from 20/20 had to refute his program on organics...I'd much rather support my sustainable guy than someone using artificial means to create pollution. See how many are paid not to farm because of water pollution runoff. YUCCCKKKKKK It does affect us all. Who is watching this? The majority of $$$$for research, for campaigns, for Universities comes from chemical companies......there is now a voice saying we care.

[This message has been edited by shroomgirl (edited August 29, 2000).]

Those are some great points you bring up Shroomgirl, and I appreciate your thoughts on this matter. What I think it really comes down to is how dedicated are you as a chef? It sounds as if you are taking the time (really taking the time) to get to know your growers, not just pulling up to the farm and taking what you can get. This undoubtedly takes time and dedication. In France this is a way of life for the Chef, and they have a relationship with every purveyor, and they are not only concerned about price. What would be helpful is maybe some guidelines on what to look for in a grower, and what to avoid. Also some type of pricing guide line would be great.

[shroomgirl]

OK.....pluses and minuses of working with farmers.
How to meet them>>>>
Call your State Ag Dept ask for sustainable or any organic group usually a pamphlet with members/phone numbers/address/map. Check out farmers markets....again your state should have an ag mkting dept that has that info in usable form. Emeril drove through the LA country side and stopped at random farms.(So I've read.)

Plus+ These guys are salt of the earth, they are dedicated to what they do because heaven knows they usually are not making money. Praise goes far, they want to know what you want them to raise. BE SPECIFIC>
Invite them to lunch show them what you do with their produce.
Plus+ Found them to be cost effective, or the quality was so superlative that it was really worth paying $7 a # for organic shiitakis.

Mother Nature can reek havic- the mid-west has been in a draught stage for 5 years.And yet we can have a horrible flash flood.
I've had a farmer pull his pigs out of a flooded field.Or pull bails of Hay 3 miles away that floated down the creek.
Neighbors spraying the fool out of their fields and it drifting to my friends....

Farmers are typically worse than chefs at returning phone calls.....set a time or get a system (e-mail or call me Tuesday at 3:00)

Farmers need to make sure the trip is worth them driving into town (some 1 1/2hours each way) So buy what you can or set them up with a few buddies, check out farm eggs....$2,00 a dz and worth every penny....My friend makes chocolate mousse with them and the volume of the egg whites adds 11 mousses to the recipe.

Farmers are so sensitive about their produce...be very careful not to be critical
They may never show up again. Nurture them.

Middle men eat up all the profit~ so direct is the best route to keep them farming.

+++Know that many are working other jobs because farming cannot pay their bills.
They are typically top of my list for hardest workers around.
Feature them in a meal....they love talking about their farm and farming practices.

Prices....vary from farmer to farmer (state to state) It may mean rethinking your way of purchasing and cooking. Nora Poullian has a certified organic kitchen in DC and her food costs are 30%. Pretty good.
We had a huge dinner where the costs were under 20%....check out www. saucecafe.com (epicure section Coming Home, Crossing over,
Fungus Amoung Us) these are the dinners we've had to feature local farmers.
Hope I've been of help. It gets easier, absolutely the quality produce and the good feel you get to know your keeping these guys in our food system helps.

[This message has been edited by shroomgirl (edited August 30, 2000).]