Chef or Rocket Scientist

[Tanasy]

I have been a chef for over 20 years; Most of the restaurants I had the pleasure of working in have employed a pastry chef to cover the baking needs of the restaurant. Although I possess some baking abilities, I’m far from qualifying as a pastry chef. I noticed lately that many job postings for executive chef positions are requiring baking experience. I thought that kind of made sense since the executive chef should have knowledge of all stations in the kitchen; however I began to realize that they are actually asking for an executive chef to also take on the task of doing the baking as well. I might expect that as a requirement in a smaller type of operation, but most of these restaurants consider them selves up scale, high end, and five star establishments. Let me know what you think about this.

Tanasy

[Chad Aaland]

If they are indeed five-star, I would expect at least a seperate experienced pastry/bakery cook.

[Mikeb]

Baking isn't rocket science. I'm 22 years old, working as a pastry chef. I've also been 1st cook on a line in a top-rated restaurant, a kitchen manager, and I never went to school. Yes, an executive chef should know how to do everything in a kitchen (including baking), and better than anyone else as well.

[cookingwithfat]

I do not think it is necessary for an executive chef to be a full blown executive pastry chef as well. All culinary schools and federations, heck even this cooking forum, make a differentiation between chefs and pastry chefs. My baking skills are mediocre at best, however I know very well what tastes good and am very comfortable having discussions with my pastry chef as to what we should menu or making suggestions that follow industry trends. Being an executive chef is not about knowing everything and being able to do every thing better than anyone else. It is about being a good manager, understanding the strengths of your team and allowing for each member of that team to work at their highest potential. I have often thought this to be a great untruth of the restaurant business: that the chef has to know everything. I think what is happening is many chefs are walking around trying to cover up their weaknesses and that leads to weakness as a whole in their kitchens.

I am blathering, I know... sorry.

[tcapper]

I do think the Exec should know and understand the pastry section but in the Uk a pasry chef (good one) is paid the same as an exec chef.

So are these people trying to save money ! I think so.

Pattiserie is an artform and a highly skilled section to run. If you look at all the write ups about Michelin chefs and restaurants they alwayse mention the name of the Exec chef and the pastry chef, they are on par with each other.

www.chefsworld.net

[HotChef]

the hotels of course have their own pastry shop with their own crew and (surprise...) mostly austrian /german pastry chefs.
so do the bigger restaurants where they also do their own bread and rolls.
and do a good trade with out of house sales.
But smaller restaurants don't have a pastry chef ( as extra position) there is a person who is trained in pastry / cakes/ dessert etc. but it is the job of the executive chef to write the (pastry) menu, train the people and make sure that the standard is required.
but very seldom we do (bread) baking and making ice cream is such a headache ( from the health dept. / sanitation side) we mostly buy movenpick icecream.
of course the chef does not have to bake cakes and do cookies, the pastry cook ( in russia it are mainly women) is quite capable doing it. and no - one can beat them in cake decoration...

[cookingwithfat]

Originally Posted by tcapper

I do think the Exec should know and understand the pastry section but in the Uk a pasry chef (good one) is paid the same as an exec chef.

So are these people trying to save money ! I think so.

Pattiserie is an artform and a highly skilled section to run. If you look at all the write ups about Michelin chefs and restaurants they alwayse mention the name of the Exec chef and the pastry chef, they are on par with each other.

Tcapper, I agree that the exec should know and understand all positions, the point I am trying to make is that baking is such a specialized craft that we as an industry do make a distinction between chefs and pastry chefs. I make the final decision as to what goes on the menu by way of pastries, and I request of my baker what I need and if I do not like the final product I make that known, but in the end I try very hard to understand the abilities of my staff and to use them where they are strongest without micro-managing in a way that implies I know everything and that they can not move without consulting me. Frankly, if I did that I think I would lose my mind with all the crap I would have to deal with all day.

[Steve A]

What you might be seeing is/are companies looking for a 'rounded' individual so they don't have to foot the bill for yet another individual.

An observation of mine has noted many restaurants are getting away from a pastry person inhouse. I certainly don't agree with it, however, this week at least, I'm not the one making the rules. LOL.

My toque has always been off to the bakers. And it IS a science... far more than cuisine.

Ciao,

[AprilB]

Baking and pastry art is far more intense than you could ever imagine given what you just posted that you think you know. Measuring exact ingredients, temps maintained for say, creme anglaise (you know what that is?), caramel, tempering chocolate, pastry creams, understanding about not killing your little yeasties by putting too hot or cold water in the dough...danishes...I'm guessing you haven't ever become one with a Hobart. Sorry...Don't know what a Hobart is?

Are you making from scratch or Sysco type frozen stuff? Yeah I did that too until Xanterra asked me to hand prepare certain items like biscotti. Have you ever had to hand make and bake 50 loaves of baguettes per day in addition to preparing 48 different desserts (4 each) AND maintain inventory for 4 signature desserts PER DAY? (bare in mind the sigs included gutting up to 24 oranges, coating the interior with chocolate and filling with flambe mix ice cream and making merangue (not to mention piping).

Can you also prepare and decorate 2 special order birthday cakes, 3 orders of dipped strawberries, all the coulis, sauces and whipped cream for foh ON THE SAME DAY. Oh, but it's "not rocket science"...That's pretty special...

I'm sorry but you seem pretty full of yourself about what being a pastry chef/baker is all about. I'm guessing your stuff tastes like pre-packaged Walmart discount items.

I've been a home cook, line cook, lead cook, breakfast cook, cakes, pastries...I've done sauces, au jus, demis, you name it. I like baking/pastries better.

Baking/pastry is far more advanced in various skills than just flipping a steak.

The EC should NOT have to take on the task of pastries/baking. That is not their position. If you don't know that then maybe, at 22, you should re-study what you think you know about the restaurant business.

You want "not rocket science", how tough is it to throw a piece of beef on a grill or under a salamander and flip it so it looks pretty?
Jeez.....

April

Originally Posted by Mikeb

Baking isn't rocket science. I'm 22 years old, working as a pastry chef. I've also been 1st cook on a line in a top-rated restaurant, a kitchen manager, and I never went to school. Yes, an executive chef should know how to do everything in a kitchen (including baking), and better than anyone else as well.

[panini]

This has been a trend for the last decade. A lot of hotels have cut the pastry chef. It's just that black part of the industry run by the bean counters.
This shouldn't come as any surprize. The whole industry is being brainwashed into conforming to the buying mediocre products from huge distributor and hiring less then qualified people.
The only negetive with this thinking is that we have totally omitted the customer in these decision.
The customer is coming around though. They are learning how to pay for quality and service, albeit really slow.
I know in my little target aud9ence, clients are learning the huge difference in the the person doing cakes out of their kitchen illegally and going to a professional. I have a cake today that we designed for someone who went with someone else becaused it was priced 300. less because they didn't "have the overhead" we did. Well this bozo calls the client Mon. this week and informs her she is going to tag along with hubby on a business trip to China and won't be able to do the cake. She also informs my client that there won't be a refund of deposit because she already bought the supplies, but she would be willing to sell them to whoever will be doing her cake
I found out yesterday my client found this person set up at a large bridal, so needless to say, I'm doing the cake within her budget minus her lost deposit and have offered to pay for my attorney to get this bozo! I see this everyday.
Unfortunately, loose titles and pay are a big part of the problem.As one of the younger culinarians here posts, Someone has given them the title of Pastry Chef and probably pays them less then scale. Heck, I've been doing this for half a century and still hesitate about using the title of Pastry Chef. I learn something new everyday.
As chefs, we not only need to educate our employees but spend the same time educating the customers.
pan

[tcapper]

Sorry April, I do take exception to your comments.

In my previous post I stated the fact that an exec and pastry are two specialised sections. What I dont think is fair is "how hard is it to slap a piece of meat on a grill or under the salamander".

Obviously with a comment like this I can tell a great deal about the standard of establishment that you have worked in. "a piece of meat" in my kitchen is treated with the respect it deserves, "a piece of meat" is sourced carefully with a minimum of five week hanging, " a piece of meat" is seasoned carefully and seared in a cast iron pan, when the right colour is achieved it is basted with butter quickly then removed and placed in the oven till a temp of 47deg is reached, it is then removed and covered with foil and rested for 10 - 20 min.

This is not a "piece of meat"

www.chefsworld.net

[panini]

Oh no!
I may have had a hand in derailing this thread.
We're going off track. Like April, I took a little exception with one of the post, but chalked it up to age.
Let's get back on track. This is a good thread and would like to hear from more on the subject, especially those in the teaching field. They must have to deal with this item everyday, are they trying to meld the two job functions together?
April, I understand defending the Pastry Art, but I also know, any experienced Hot Chef has the same respect for Pastry as they would require back.
Tcapper,
I also understand your defence. I also think you hit the reason right on the head, money!
pan

[Someday]

Originally Posted by tcapper

Sorry April, I do take exception to your comments.


Obviously with a comment like this I can tell a great deal about the standard of establishment that you have worked in. "a piece of meat" in my kitchen is treated with the respect it deserves, "a piece of meat" is sourced carefully with a minimum of five week hanging, " a piece of meat" is seasoned carefully and seared in a cast iron pan, when the right colour is achieved it is basted with butter quickly then removed and placed in the oven till a temp of 47deg is reached, it is then removed and covered with foil and rested for 10 - 20 min.

This is not a "piece of meat"

www.chefsworld.net

OT: Do you really cover your nicely seared steak with foil after it come out of the oven? Why on earth would you do that? Seems like the crust built up in the cast iron would be soggy by the time it has rested? Does the steam not do that?

I'm not picking I'm just curious, I've always been taught not to cover my steaks for fear of ruining the crust.

[felixe the dog]

I agree with Panini on the state of the (hospitality) industry, over the past 15 years many hotels have closed butcheries and bakeries and outsourced their requirements.
This has been the result of tighter financial management of Hotels. The balance has shifted towards Financial performance indicators, while many non- financial indicators such as - investment in staff, customer satisfaction, customer retention and internal business practices have been given a lesser priority.
The upside of this has been an emergence of "high quality" independent businesses who have recognised a gap in the market.

I am suprised that "high end" restaurants would expect the Executive chef to take on the baking duties as the position is one of a Kitchen/Operations manager and is not a dedicated hands on position.

Pastry and Baking are still seperate trades and it is unrealistic to expect chefs to have the required skill set of a baker/pastrycook who has many years of trade experience and schooling.

I suggest you stay away from these establishments, any "high end" restaurant would recognise the importance of skilled staff in growing the business and cutting corners is warning sign of poor management within the operation.

BTW - Good on you April, I agree with your sentiments.

Mike B - At 22 you believe that your list of jobs you have performed make you an expert???
I would look at the attitude of your last post and believe you have held so many positions because you get moved around a lot because of the conflict you create.
Even if you had spent most of your kitchen time in a pastry kitchen (that would be 6 years) you don't have enough experience to call yourself an expert, it would barely qualify you above the position of demi chef pastry.

Your comments so far on the issue only highlight your ignorance of the subject.

[even stephen]

Wow,
Lot of hurt feelings on this post. As I came up in this field,
Some of the old timers from Europe were able to bake and
do pastries, quite well I might add. The problem is, when your
not doing it everyday, you loose touch with the delicate side of
things. I'll admit there are extremely rare cases when you work
for a chef that is so well rounded he may be better than anyone
on staff including the pastry chef. I worked for an exec named
Gerard Vullien in the early 90's. He was such a chef. Chefs will
know enough to get by if they are worth there wieght though. Flans,
creme caramel, sabayon, coulis, different buttercreams, spongecakes,
basic use of gelatin, mousses, tempering chocolate to a certain degree,
biscotti, cookies, danish and puff pastry, some simple breads, stollen,
focaccia, basic sours, cheesecakes, cake decorating, and many other
things. Its not a contest for gods sake. Most chefs learn these things
out of interest and necessity. I can hold my own, but, I have a huge,
I mean huge, amount of respect for Pastry chefs and Bakers that can
grind out production day in and day out. I am not the best at ice carving
or carving floral arrangements out of fruits and vegetables, but, I am not
the worst. Everyone has thier place, and everyone is essential to the
well being of a successful kitchen. Each individuals specific strength in
their respective area of this trade makes a team not unlike a brigade.
Please try and remember when you were 22 and full of piss and vinegar.
I am sure this fellow will be humbled, as we all were, sometime in the future.
Whether its a "piece of meat" or "Blown Sugar" its all important for one
reason. The instant gratification we all bring to the table for the ones we
love, members at a private club, your customer base at the restaurant, or
anyone else lucky enough to eat, see, and smell what we produce on a
daily basis. Remember "eat every bean and pee on your plate".