its all about the complaining

[jbd]

Originally Posted by dudethatsmine

just a update i guess about me i am really considering the navy route going through the ACF program in the navy sounds really good to me and a lot of hard work but thats what i want to be put through. Any comments about this idea would be nice. And i do think having military experience on a resume is looked at very nicely rite?.

Personally I think that is an excellent idea, but I'm retired military so I may have a skewed opinion .

Much of the training in the military will earn college level credits. Combine this with an opportunity to earn ACF certifications and I don't think you can have anything but a winning situation. Having said that, please research the Navy thing thoroughly. Make absolutely sure you understand what you are getting into. You have a right to know what the Navy expects of you and what you can expect from the Navy in the way of training and educational benefits including how you will recieve ACF qualifications.

[foodpump]

Originally Posted by Kali the Foodie

If it's so expensive to educate, than why can't we go back to the whole apprenticeship idea. I'm pretty sure everyone says it's the individual that makes the chef, not the school. What's the point then, really?

Good question. Here's an even better question:

In an apprenticeship situation, who will train the trainees? Who has the skills, experience, knowledge, patience, and understanding to train up a newbie? The K.M at Applebee's? The ESL immigrant salad cook who can make a wicked clubhouse and not much else?

You need to follow the "4-T rule": Trained Trainers Training the Trainees, and there aren't enough trained trainers around here, just a lot of wannabe "Chefs".

How do you define "Chef" ? Well, that's a pretty hot topic, and in N. America you can't define "Chef". Heck, there aren't even any national standards or qualifications to define Chef.

Yes, cooking schools are expensive, being a Chef is still "hot" right now, so the market responds to the demand and charges according to demand. And why not? Cooking isn't a regulated trade, it's not recognized by any trade industry or Gov't. So the schools can do whatever they want to do--pump out " fully trained chefs"--no previous experience required-- in as little as 6 mths. Anyone can design a curriculum, there are no standards to follow. It's a sure thing, no one can complain, because there IS no one to complain, except the eejits who take the courses and find out they've been hosed--Caveat emporium and all that, right?

Check out the Community Colleges, they aren't too bad, matter of fact, they're pretty darn good.

If you want to learn on the job, remember this fact: There are no guarantees that what you learn on the job is the correct way of doing things, no guarantee that who ever is showing you knows what he/she is doing. With a school you have some modicum of a guarantee that what you're shown is the right way of doing things. In other words, the "4 T's" all over again.

[jbd]

Originally Posted by Kali the Foodie

If it's so expensive to educate, than why can't we go back to the whole apprenticeship idea. I'm pretty sure everyone says it's the individual that makes the chef, not the school. What's the point then, really?

Either system can turn out an excellent cook or baker. Pretty much all of what I know about cooking and baking is self taught although with the baking I had more on the job training somewhat like an informal apprenticeship. The shortcoming, IMO, was that I was limited to learning that particular bakery's product lines. Cooking was much more self taught working in various restaurants. Again exposure was limited to any given restaurants offerings. One of my daughters on the other hand graduated from CIA in 2007 and she has a far superior exposure to different cuisines and foods than I could ever achieve in the same amount of time. I remember her calling me one day when they were studying seafood, fish in particular. Each student was given something like 10 2-3 oz servings of various fish to taste with discussion of the flavor, texture and other qualities of each species. They may have done this for 2 or 3 days but I would have to check with her to make sure that is correct. They talked about where each species was found around the world. I worked in a seafood restaurant and all we ever prepared was the same fried fish, fried frog legs, fried shrimp, fried hush puppies, french fries and coleslaw. There I learned to follow the owners method of production and nothing more. Nothing about flavor, texture, fat content seasoning or other cooking methods.

Such informal training as I have had pales in comparison to the education and training my daughter has. Having just graduated in 2007, she is now working in what she and I call her apprenticeship. She is currently an assistant cook, hoping to become a cook on her next contract and then eventually lead cook and then possibly sous chef after that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that schooling has given her a stronger broader foundation of knowledge to build on than what I could acquire in the same amount of time via self teaching and informal learning. A truly formal apprenticeship program is not really much different than schooling IMO. I may be incorrect about that though.

[ChefRAZ]

Originally Posted by foodpump

Unions are a joke and only exist to garnishee wages, professional bodies exist to only to offer a multitude of regional standards, and are influeneced by private corporations.


Salaries and respect for cooking don't come from the employer, they come from the source of money. No, not the bank or some kind of Gov't institution, the money comes from the customer.

Educate the N. American customer and some of the problems will dissapear...

I'd just add "and workers"

[Kali the Foodie]

Dude, I just got out of the Navy, and I can tell you right now nobody cares. My resume is full of pretty little "Look, I done good" stickers and it didn't even get me interviews. You have to meet people, and then give them a good impression. I'm not saying the navy won't help you, the VA is paying for me to go to school right now. And I do hear the culinary program is one of the first jobs in the navy to get civilian equivalent training, which is pretty good.
I will warn you though, you may not be cooking during your tour of duty. They also use cooks to be in charge of barracks. They see it as tying in "Hotel Management experience" to the job, but really you are just the grunt who makes sure people clean their rooms and don't leave their crap in common areas. It's three years of babysitting, basically. And if you do get a cooking job, it will be on a cramped ship where you will have other duties as well, to include standing watch, painting the ship and scrubbing it as well. So while you will recieve a legite diploma, the military experience will not make you a better cook and unless you are really gung-ho about being part of the NAVY, you will be miserable. Everyone I know who joined for the college money and the "job experience" reasons was or still is miserable, to include myself.
I'm not saying don't do it, I'm just telling you to do your homework ahead of time and make sure it's something you can handle, it's not the fantastic life your recruiter will make it sound like.

[Kali the Foodie]

I just read all my posts in this thread and realize how bitter I sound. Wow... maybe I'll just shut up now.

[dudethatsmine]

thanks for the insight kali i do not think i am expecting any form of military life to be fantastic and glamourus lol i see through the bullshit of recruiters thanks to the insight of my uncle, grandpa and dad that has been in there done that kind of thing. Now will they help pay for a 1 year culinary school program or one of those short programs like ICE 6 months if i wanted ?. Oh and one more question when they send you to a school i see in the culinary arts section that they teach you to tailor and all this other stuff that doesn't have to do with cooking ? am i looking at something wrong?.

[Chef_SijmoN]

I whent to culinary school in sweden for 3 years and here it's "free" it's payd by taxes.
And i feel ripped off and i dident iven pay i just wasted 3 years of my life.

I'm very serious about my work and i love what i do but i'm not a big fan of the education you get.
When i look back on my three years in school i know i could learn so mutch more with an apprenticeship.

And yes it's hard work and long hour but for me it's life i cant see my self do anything else.
The year i finished culinary school i did it with around 60 other people in my age and i know for a fact that is only 5 or 6 of us in the business to day, 3years later.
As some one else sad before, you cant teache some one to be a chef its something you born in to.

[greyeaglem]

Originally Posted by dudethatsmine

just a update i guess about me i am really considering the navy route going through the ACF program in the navy sounds really good to me and a lot of hard work but thats what i want to be put through. Any comments about this idea would be nice. And i do think having military experience on a resume is looked at very nicely rite?.

thanks for your 2cents chefbrian

I went to culinary school with a guy who had been a cook in the navy. One day, after a particularly trying morning, I made a comment something to the effect of "Thank God that's over." and he said "Yeah, now how would you like to hit a wave and have it all go on the floor and have to start all over?" I looked at him with total disbelief and horror, and he started laughing and said it was fairly common to have that happen. He said the worst was being on a sub and have it surface suddenly. He was the most respected and knowlegable person in our class. The course was just a formality for him for his resume. The navy is a good teacher. And they pay you to learn. I think this is a very good plan for you if you think the military life will suit you. I used to know a guy that was a lifer in the air force and he used to travel with the President and do overseas state dinners. That guy knew a LOT and he wasn't famous, but he sure was impressive. I used to love tossing a few and talking to him. As for why we do this, I don't know. I wish I did. It gets in your blood. I think it's the same way sailors feel about the sea or drivers about racing. I left the industry for 11 years to work in telecom. It paid twice as much, had benefits and I got to sit on my butt making it wider. Thing was, people would ask me what I did and I'd say I was a chef but was working as an overseas phone operator. It was like a part of me was missing. Foodpump has an earlier post that was very well said. There are no apprenticeships in the food industry that are universally recognized like there are for the other trades. The plumber is a good analogy. Therefore there is no respect for the people in our industry and we can't command the wages that other trades do. Anyone can say they're a chef, and who will challenge their claim? There was a discussion a while back on a thread here about that and I caught some flack because some people misunderstood what I was saying. I would like to see industry standards something on the order of boiler makers where you have a class A B or C certification issued on the basis of knowledge and experience.

[jbd]

Originally Posted by greyeaglem

I would like to see industry standards something on the order of boiler makers where you have a class A B or C certification issued on the basis of knowledge and experience.

Is that not what the ACF certifications are about?

[greyeaglem]

Originally Posted by jbd

Is that not what the ACF certifications are about?

Yes, but that certification is not readily available and it comes at considerable cost to the applicant. Certification is also not required and so basically worthless. Also, it's not clear what knowlege/experience is required for what level of certification. I have tried (unsuccessfully) to research the criteria for different levels.If I wanted certification for say, executive chef, what do I need to know and what experience do I need? Still don't know. I don't want to set up an appointment for a test, pay $1,5oo and drive 130 miles only to find out I'm woefully underqualified to even be taking the test. If our trade were governed like any other, a person could not apply for or hold a position such as executive chef unless they had certification for that level of experience. A person would not be able to B.S. their way in, which happens a lot. This is why we see threads on here about people in this industry who hold management positions even though they don't know the first thing about food handling of safety, much less how to run a kitchen. If they were in an electrician's union, they'd be holding the spool of wire for the person who does know what they're doing. The equivalent of dishwasher in our world.

[jbd]

Originally Posted by greyeaglem

Yes, but that certification is not readily available and it comes at considerable cost to the applicant.

I agree with pretty much all of what you said, but particularly with the quoted line. From what I understood, my daughter who graduated from CIA last year would be eligible for the ACF's certified culinarian certification. When I picked her up at the airport yesterday I asked her about it and she said, "it cost to much and at a time when I'm loaded with debt and not making any money yet".

At this point I'm not sure if she had to only pay a membership fee or if she would have to pay to take the test also. Membership fee might not be too bad, I didn't check into it, but the test fees are significant.

IMO, people graduating from either a school, like CIA, J&W etc, etc, from a formal apprenticeship, should be granted the certified culinarian certificate upon successful completion of their programs. This would be a start, IMO, towards professionalizing the industry. For the people who cannot or did not attend such formal training there needs to be a better process for getting them the information they need so they can prepare for and take those certification tests.

PM sent, I hope it helps.

jbd

[foodpump]

I have studied the ACF website extensively and have come to two conclusions:
1) As a Canuck, I'm jealous, as we have nothing similiar. Oh we have Chef's federations and associations, but it's each territory to itself.

2) I am thoroughly confused. The ACF has a myriad of Chef titles, and many ways of achieving these titles. What I don't see on that site is any emphasis on the cook.

Cook. I said it again. In N.America it must be some kind of a 4 letter dirty word, the ACF refer to cooks as "culinarians", they've banished the word cook. I'm of the opinion that you can't walk before you can crawl, can't swim before you can tread water, can't become an officer until you go through boot camp, and most importantly, can't become a Chef before you're a competant cook. Yet the qualifications for ACF 's "culinarian" are really pathetic, check them out.

Yet for Sous Chef and higher titles the ACF demands that the applicant must be in a supervisory postion--that is have people under him. Think about this for a second or two. It's true I am very slanted-biased towards the european method of apprenticeships, and I witnessed first hand the emphasis the Gov'ts put on the training of apprentices: No one can hire or train apprentices without first completing an apprenticeship, and also taking a course giving them the credentials to train apprentices. Trained trainers training the trainees.... Those guys take the job of cooking and training very seriously.
BUT, according the the ACF, in order to get your Chef title you have to train people, BEFORE taking the exam. Train newbies before demonstrating what you know to the ACF. What guarantees does the trainee have that what he/she is being instructed to do is correct?

This, I feel is the very essence of the problem in N. America regarding our profession. We do need some kind of a national standard, and as with the other trades-plumber, electrican, etc, it has to be Gov't recognised. The ACF is not.

[ALynch]

Originally Posted by greyeaglem

Yes, but that certification is not readily available and it comes at considerable cost to the applicant. Certification is also not required and so basically worthless. Also, it's not clear what knowlege/experience is required for what level of certification. I have tried (unsuccessfully) to research the criteria for different levels.If I wanted certification for say, executive chef, what do I need to know and what experience do I need? Still don't know. I don't want to set up an appointment for a test, pay $1,5oo and drive 130 miles only to find out I'm woefully underqualified to even be taking the test. If our trade were governed like any other, a person could not apply for or hold a position such as executive chef unless they had certification for that level of experience. A person would not be able to B.S. their way in, which happens a lot. This is why we see threads on here about people in this industry who hold management positions even though they don't know the first thing about food handling of safety, much less how to run a kitchen. If they were in an electrician's union, they'd be holding the spool of wire for the person who does know what they're doing. The equivalent of dishwasher in our world.

Everything you need to know about ACF certification is spelled out on the ACF website here. It tells you clearly the requirements for each level of certification, including how much education you need and work experience, and how to document them. It also tells you what you need to know for the written test , including which books to read and even has practice tests you can take for a fee. It also tells you what you need to prepare for each of the practical exams including the ingredients and amounts. There are even books available through the ACF online bookstore to help out also. My previous employer, my current employer and my future employers require ACF certification. I make more money because I am ACF certified and It is my standard. Finally my initial C.C. certification was done at JWU when I was a student and it only cost me $150. I had to pay the $50 application fee and the $75 fee to take the written exam. JWU paid the cost for the practical which is only the cost of food. I am currently working towards my C.E.C and even if my employer was not paying the costs, it would only cost me $275 or $375 if I was not a member of the ACF.

[RSteve]

Originally Posted by dudethatsmine

i am really considering the navy route. going through the ACF program in the navy sounds really good to me and a lot of hard work but thats what i want to be put through.

d-t-m: I think you're making a very wise decision. The service schools, from everything I've heard, now are excellent. Of course, I'm a bit biased, but dated. In '68-'69 my cooking talents kept me off a many a patrol in Vietnam. I did spend a little time teaching small quantity field cooking while at Fort Lee, Virginia.