"Suing"

[chiffonade]

Originally posted by alexia
Re allergies: menus with detailed descriptions would be nice, but remember that would entail mentioning specifically wheat, peanut oil, msg, and a host of other things that we all regard as staples.

I understand about staples, etc., however, if a dish has peanuts in it and they are not listed in the description, there could be trouble. As far as flour, etc., I think people know bread has flour in it, unless it's spelt. First line of defense in an allergy situation is definitely the diner requesting specific information. The waitperson should be able to answer any question about any dish. How about a line on a menu that says, "If any of our diners have food sensitivies, do not hesitate to ask our waitstaff questions about any dish on our menu."


Re info on calories, fat, salt, etc.: This is a complex issue. Take fast food, for example. Their menus are quite stable, they're computerized, standardized to the fraction of an ounce. It would not take a great deal of effort for them to post nutritional info. But if they did some people might pause at just how much fat and salt are in their product.

This would be the desired end result. Showing a tantalizing burger on television without disclosing the actual fat information makes it look more appealing than it should. (They never look like that anyway!) An occasional quick trip for ff won't kill anyone but making it a 5 day a week meal is deadly.


I agree that people "should" take responsibility... many schools now contract out their cafeterias to ff chains that are feeding children their lunches. Keep in mind that many of the people who are uninformed about nutrition are precisely the ones barely able to keep their boat afloat, with not enough time or money to get through their day. How reasonable is it to expect people in these groups to be ABLE to take responsibility for researching how many calories are in a big Mac?

Contracting a fast food chain to sell its slop to school cafeterias should be punishable by death. Do you realize the repercussions of teaching kids to eat this stuff in school??? I know it happens though, and if this information was published to parents, maybe they'd take enough of an interest to pressure schools not to do these fast food contracts. Regarding people who are having trouble keeping the boat afloat - do you realize that money spent on a fast food meal for one person could sometimes feed a family of 2 or 3 if used at the supermarket to purchase raw food?? It's fast food, not cheap food. Add that up for a family's night out at McD's and you can see how that money can be better spent.


There's a vast pool out there of people who are truly uninformed about what's in the food they eat, unaware a "serving" of meat is about the size of a deck of cards, etc., unaware of different kinds of fat, etc. And some are not capable of doing the research required to find out, not just unwilling.

I'm hoping that publishing nutritional info will combat that "uninformed" state. At least they'd know what they were doing and could make an informed choice. Not knowing what a serving size is stems from the "get more for less" mentality. A heaping plate of food could contain enough mass (and calories) to represent 2-3 days' worth of food. But who do you know who would go to a restaurant that only provided the "healthy" amount of food vs. a truckload?


...there is also "corporate" and societal responsibility to the young and the weak among us. There's no real reason for ff not posting nutritional information EXCEPT that it might deter some people from eating it or as much of it.

This is the fight waged by people vs. tobacco companies for years. Until we start electing people to office who believe that health is more important than corporate profits, we're liable to have to continue fighting for this type of information to be disclosed.

[ShawtyCat]

Speaking of the get more for less mentality.....its being enforced by advertising. The restaurant contracts an advertising agency to "sell" their restaurant and that agency will do and say anything along the borderline of the law to sell that client.

For example the ads that target kids...."Buy this burger and get this toy. Youll be the envy of your friends" My daughter always wanted to go to McDs when we drove by. I asked her what she wanted to eat and she said "TOY!" Today I saw an add for Popeyes that said "Buy a bucket of chicken and get another at half price!" The old SAVE MONEY tactic. We restaurants are not solely responsible for making people fat if whomever wants to sue us. They should start with the ad agencies. Last night I saw an infomercial recruiting for the Dr. Atkins diet. The rhetoric is very well put together I might add...they sound so reasonable. They are very good at using the facts and twisting it to their point of view. "Fat people's bodies do not burn food the same way skinny peoples bodies do."

Everything would have to change in order to educate the public. That's just the big picture. I agree with you on adding that disclaimer at the bottom of the menu pages. That's how we could do our part in stopping this Fat Epidemic.

PS

Can't the local hospitals start offering seminars on nutrition etc.?? Most people don't believe me when I say something about the food they are eating but show them an article from one of my medical journals and BAM! They suddenly get an epiphany.

[CompassRose]

Originally posted by chiffonade
But who do you know who would go to a restaurant that only provided the "healthy" amount of food vs. a truckload?

Me. And my husband. (And my sister.) It would be such a relief to stop having to either order only from the "appetiser" section, or to spend twenty minutes just arguing about what entree we would BOTH like to eat, so that we can share it.

I hate being confronted with a disgusting huge heap of food. No matter how good it is, it takes away my appetite to be served with something which, at home, would be what I'd make for FOUR people. Nor do I usually take leftovers home; most restaurant food isn't the sort of thing I'd eat every day, plus if I'm not going directly home after eating (which I very often am not), it isn't safe left in a car or whatever.

[The Saucy Cajun]

It seems that maybe there is somewhat of a solution for restaurants, but I'm a CATERER!. In LOUISIANA, "where creme & butter are still good for you"! My take on Peachtree's concept of "don't be a part of the problem" is somewhat different. My main clients are brides. They don't ask for junk food. But they are NOT worrying about fat. So if they order turkey, I buy minimum processed & cook it myself. But then again, they may order ham. Either way,I feel my responsiblity is to give them the freshest, least processed food I can. But when someone wants a shrimp alfredo with double creme, I can't suggest a nice organic salad instead! It's their WEDDING! No one is worrying about if what they eat is healty at their own wedding! And if I don't give them what they want, someone else will. And here's the other part of the problem. The bride, or hostees, is ordering for EVERYONE. I ALWAYS ask if there will be any guests that are vegetarian. (I had a groom once that wanted about 12 different dishes, 10 of which had meat in one way or another. When I asked him if there were any vegetarians, he said yes, the BRIDE!)The client orders what they want to eat & everyone else either eats it or not. And as far as the allergies,or even the fat or salt for people with high blood pressure, I can ask the bride if she is aware any guests with these problems, but she hasn't even met everyone invited to her wedding. How can she know their medical histories? And there is NO WAY a bride wants little cards with the info about ingredients or fat in front of every silver chaffer or tray! It's like sneeze guards. Yes they're manditory, but you NEVER see one on a CATERED buffet. So the only thing I can really do is ask the client, make sure my insurance is up to date, and assume that the guest will take the responsiblity to ASK if they have a problem. I have also instructed my entire staff, that even if they helped cook the particular dish, DO NOT just tell the guest what is in it. ASK ME FIRST!!! Maybe the marinate that they just poured in a bowl, that was made the day before when they weren't there, has peanut oil in it. And the idea of doing a list of ingredients is only some work. But the idea of fat grams becomes impossible almost! We specialize in custom weddings. There are dishes that we have done that we never did before, and will never do again. You can bring us Great-Aunt Matilda's recipe for goulash & we will produce it. I would have to hire someone to do nothing but the math! And I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but I believe everyone should make their own choices and be responsible for them! This includes even whether you choose to smoke or not. If I decide to go play on the interstate, and I have been told that this is dangerous, it is a direct result of my own choice if I get run over! The car driver, the interstate builders, nor the department that is responsible for roads is to blame. My life, my choice. It would be different if your mother never told you not to play in the street & they were advertizing that the interstate is a great place to spend your vacation! LOL Hoever, if there is no info on playing on interstates, either pro or con, I'm going to look at the situation, look back on what I've already been taught, such as cars hit people, some food contains peanut oil, or it's bad for you to smoke. If I need more info I'll ASK. Then,I'll make up my own mind, and yes Marmalady wear my "purple hat", and be responsible for my decision. And as far as educating the public...sorry, not my job. There is an ocean of info out there for the people that are interested. Chiffonade is totally correct. Peachtree's bacon eater knew exactly what he was doing. His life, his choice. But I don't think he has the right to yell foul when he gets health problems due to his own decisions! I try to give people what they want in the healthest way I can. But saying it is my job to educate them, when they already know this info and just don't want to listen, is rather like saying the car salesman should teach you how to drive, and be responsible if you have an accident. But then, of course, if you played on the interstate and got hit,you could also sue the car salesman!!LOL
The Saucy Cajun
ps Shawtycat, the Atkins diet does work! My friend & I went on "Protein Power", which is a spinoff and together lost over 125 lbs. I told her I was going to get her a T-shirt that read "Ask me how I lost over 75 lbs. eating pork skins!!!" We ate things like shrimp alfredo , just subed the pasta with zuc. We had our med tests done regularly. The nurses said that "bacon must have never pasted those lips"....we ate it every morning! With eggs & cheese!
pss And CompassRose,as far as smaller portions, it would never work. First of all, most people CHOOSE to eat that much. Plus, the other people would not feel like they got their money's worth. They would all complain & then go to another restaurant. Even if you cut the price somewhat. Let's say you sell 6 oz. of pasta alfredo for $20. There's no way you could sell 3 oz. for $10. Every part of your overhead would basically remain the same except food costs - your rent, insurance, advertizing, etc. would all remain the same. This is something "civilians" don't realize. They think they're just "buying food". So they'd never go for half the food for 3/4 of the price. Plus, most people do get a "doggie bag".

[chiffonade]

Caje...you bring up some good points about wedding food, etc. but people are expecting to indulge when they attend such an affair! As far as listing allergy-prone ingredients...It's your insurance and the bride & groom's. In a place where a burglar can sue a potential victim if he or she gets hurt in the act, who wants to flirt with financial disaster?? (Sneeze guards notwithstanding.)

Re: Atkins, check the nutritional folder. Atkins himself finally had a heart attack and I don't know a single doctor (I mean real doctors) who endorse this fad diet. You can't live that way - that's the true test of a fad diet. Atkins will eventually go the way of the cabbage soup diet, especially after his little romp through the emergency room.

[ShawtyCat]

SC,

It does seem, alright it is, impossible to ask the bride to find out whos allergic to what especially if the wedding party is a few hundred guests. I also agree with you about the large portions. Our little diner serves the food at diner portions. Most people can't finish what's on their plates but ALL of them ask for a take out container. Whether it is so they can eat the food later or like the one trucker who wanted to feed the rest to his pet wolf. Yea my eyebrows raised when I heard that one too. If we were to cut the portions back people would do more than complain. They expect the "fancy" fine dining restaurants to serve those portions on the big plates and expect us to serve them comfort food. So they know what they want before they walk through our doors. Id like to serve what I think of as healthier food but that is NOT what the public wants.

We have customers with diabetes, on low sodium, low fat and veggie diets and THEY tell US what they can't eat etc. My hubby will either tell them that "Hey we can substitute this for this" or "Don't order that. How about this or this?" We have responsible customers who care about their own health and know we aren't mind readers. A disclaimer at the bottom of the menu should cover it. But people WILL find SOMETHING they can sue you over. It's the nature of the beast.

As for your catering biz, unless you have the information stored somewhere on a computer that you can access...really tedious work getting the info into the computer.....youre sunk. Its much easier for a restaurant that does food costing etc. already to just pull up nutritional info.

PS

As for the Atkins diet. My hubby keeps saying that it is only good for the short term. Lose the weight, get off the plan and start eating healthy. Im not gonna say what diet people can get on or not. Im no doctor and Im not getting sued for giving medical advice without a license. And this whole nutritonal info posting thing. I can see how it could be implemented in a restaurant setting but not with catering and other miscellaneous "little" operations. Everyone is talking about WHAT they WANT to see but not HOW to actually DO it. That's not helping to solve the prob either.

Peachcreek may have it right. Make a stand. Create your niche biz (like the veggie restaurants did and the lady with the raw bar) and let the people who want to eat healthy come in. When my hubby orders pizza he knows exactly what he wants and how many calories etc. But he doesnt care then because that's what he wants to eat. How can he sue when he called and placed the order? No one from the pizza place called him and said "How about a greasy cheese pizza?"

If people start suing the restaurant biz and winning...the government is just allowing more people to be irresponsible and not take responsibility for their actions. Wasn't it just the other day people were saying that the public was more educated about nutrition and healthy eating than past generations? What happended to that study?

[phatch]

Suing is pretyy much a civil affair. They aren't suing you for a crime as that is the realm of the DA and the police. So you can be sued for literally any reason the other person chooses. It takes only three things: An attorney willing to take the case, money to pay that weasel and a spineless judge. It's supposed to be the judge's job to throw out civil cases without merit.

But they won't.

These cases can make a judge's career and give them big press attention. They get their names written into case law and will be famous in the courts forever.

Most attorneys who represent the suer don't want a trial. They want a settlement. It's fast and easy money. And settlements are often cheaper for the target than taking the crap shoot on a judge looking for fame and history.

The target can't win and the harassers can't lose.

All for spineless judges.

Phil

[ShawtyCat]

God bless the Judicial system. ~Sigh~

[The Saucy Cajun]

Shawtycat, like you , I can't tell people what diet to go on. But I can tell them what worked for me & my friend. As to your husbands suggestion to lose the weight and then "eat healthy", well, I really don't think the diet, in moderate, is unhealthy. But your husbands suggestion is what the book (Protein Power) basically says to do. (Also, Protein Power is not a "diet". It's really more of an education as to how your body uses carbs. You choose what to eat. But you'll understand why you just have to have just one more chocolate chip cookie!)While we were on the diet we ate lots of meat, fish, poultry & green veggies plus took all the vitamins suggested. Just no flour,(ie bread or pasta), no sugar, no potatoes, no corn. Ate limited amounts of things like carrots & tomatoes. Didn't count fat or calories, just no more than 12 grams of carbs at a time & no more than 40 in a day. Also made sure we ate 75 grams of protein a day. Did you know that low fat mayo usually has SUGAR in it to make up for the lack of taste? That as far as your blood sugar levels are concered, you can eat a potato or 1/4C. sugar & it's about the same? I think that's what makes me so mad about all this. People ARE being fooled. But not by the companies that they want to sue. Eating low fat does not mean you'll lose weight! My friend & I both had tried that for a year or two and GAINED weight! Now that we've lost the weight, we try & just eat half that potato, or take the top off the sandwich. But I see these 450 lb. women in the grocery with their low-fat cookies & just want to cry!

The Saucy Cajun
ps The Atkins diet has been around for decades.

[chiffonade]

Welfare was not designed to be a permanent income and restaurants were not designed to be an "every night" experience, replacing the family home.

Anyone who thinks they can "eat healthy" off a regular restaurant menu is seriously misled. You have no control over what goes into the end product. Vegetables, supposedly one of the healthiest foods on the planet, get drowned in butter and sauteed in copious amounts of oil, doused with salt. This is restaurant food and unless the name of the place is "Weight Watchers" where healthy portions are the norm, expect to sin.

The whole diet thing speaks for itself. Anyone who does Atkins, then tries to eat like a normal person, blows up again. Fact. Balance is the key, the body needs components of every type of food and any diet that prescribes one cut out tremendous amounts of any food group is a fad. Fact. The only food program you can follow for life is one that promotes balance and healthy portions, not four cheeseburgers with no bun. Fact.

As for anyone who thinks I have contempt for people who enjoy food - brother, have you got the wrong ticket. If I had contempt for anyone who "enjoys" food, I wouldn't have chosen the culinary arts as my career. Gluttony is what nauseates me. (Good example, Peachtree's bacon eater.) Anyone who has ever enjoyed a meal at my home or my restaurant knows how much I enjoy people who enjoy food.

The labeling issue is obviously not going to be solved overnight. After a few more years of kids presenting with diabetes and heart disease, suffering maladies that aren't supposed to show up (if at all) until their sixties and seventies, someone will make the connection between garbage food and health (or the lack thereof). Eventually, the corporate connection won't matter as much - it's already begun with the cigarette companies. Judging from how long that took, we'll be debating this subject for years to come.

[The Saucy Cajun]

Chiffonade, I basically agree with everything you've said except your diet "facts".
"The whole diet thing speaks for itself. Anyone who does Atkins, then tries to eat like a normal person, blows up again. Fact."
If this is a fact both my friend & I are the exceptions that prove the rule. (Unless you mean by "normal", back to the same old way of eating. I'm sure I'd blow up if I went back to my candy bars!) Neither of us has been trying to lose weight, only maintain, for about 3 years now. We lost the amount that we wanted to back then. And neither one of us has "blown up". But we are "still on the diet" and will ALWAYS be. (We didn't go on Atkins as we both felt it was too strict. Protein Power is a take off of Atkins, and allows you many more choices.) But when I say that we are still on the diet and always will be, what I mean is never again will I eat pasta & bread at the same meal. Or corn & potatoes. And I try to skip the desserts. I now pay attention to what I eat because I know what effect it will have on me.I'm a chocoholic! Actually, as the book taught me, I'm a carb junkie. Both my Mother & my fraternal grandfather were diabetics. My insulin receptors are messed up. So if you give me more than 12 grams of carbs at one time, I want to binge!!!! And if I eat more than 12, but don't binge, I "crash"! But the "diet" is not a "diet". It's an understanding of how carbs work in your body. How your individual system, depending on your genetics & personal history, can actually store fat if you don't eat enough protein because it thinks "hard times" are here. Why regular dieting doesn't work for you if you're a carb junkie. And once I understood that I fit the profile, saw that the concept worked when NOTHING else had, well, now I'll never eat the same again. Now I'm not saying that it works for everyone. Only carb junkies. But there's a lot of us out there. And more everyday, because you can BECOME one by eating JUNK FOOD! Low-fat doesn't work for us. But you have to read about it to know if you're one. But I guess that's what I've be saying on this thread all long. People have to recognize the problem, look around for some answers, and then take the responsibility and do what they decide is best for them. Choices, learning about cause & effect, it's what life is all about!
The Saucy Cajun
ps I never ate 4 cheeseburgers in my life, with or without the bun. Even while trying to lose weight, my average meal was something like a leg quarter of chicken or a piece of grilled fish, salad and/or a green vegetable. A leg quarter of chicken has 24 grams of protein. I only had to eat 75 grams of protein a day.

[KyleW]

One of the things I love about The U.S.of A. is that I can go to sleep at night wrapped in the warm embrace of the knowledge that there are people out there who know better what is good for me than I do

[ShawtyCat]

Caje, (borrowing from Chiff )

RE: The Atkin's Diet or Any Diet actually

I don't think I'll ever understand the concept of "diet" (other than diet being the food you eat). I've never been on a diet, never gained any weight (except for being pregnant and then I always drop back to my original weight), never watched what I eat. In fact I think Im underweight! Some days Im not hungry so I'll eat a little fruit, maybe have a salad or rice and peas. No meat. Other days I'll have a drumstick with rice and peas plus a salad with no dressing and feel too full to eat dessert. I can't eat what I want because it just won't fit! And I don't mean a large salad either, just a few slices of tomato with a little lettuce served on the side of your plate. Ive never been heavier than 95 pounds. I don't understand why. I graze all day. But when Im grazing its mostly on fruit, a hard boiled egg, cream of wheat, a peanut butter sandwich or Ritz crackers with cheese and milk. I don't eat meat that much.

I always thought weight had to do with if you exercised or not. So maybe that is why it is so hard for me to understand the whys of dieting. I don't think we should start a thread on it though. Too many heated opinions on the subject.

Now to get back on topic....

What information should we be documenting to give to customers? If someone is allergic to or shouldn't be eating something that they only know by the scientific name and we don't know it by that wouldn't it be a problem. And some of the things we cook with, say teriyaki sauce comes with a barrage of ingredients already. (Yes, Ive been studying my recipes) It really would be very hard for ANY eatery to document all this information. We already have enough paperwork to do with HACCP! This idea would turn into a very big nightmare for the industry. Unless we want to go back to bare bones cooking and don't buy any bottled and canned produce (canned tomatoes and tomato paste etc.)

It will be very hard to please every customer that comes to eat. Its hard enough coming up with an idea of HOW to present the information to the public. But a whole 'nother bag when you try to figure out WHAT information you should be documenting. I can see someone out there saying "Hey! What about me? Did the farmer use any chemicals or drugs with this food? Where is THAT information?" I can see how very easy it would be for this kind of situation can spin violently out of control.

Jodi

[ShawtyCat]

This is much more serious than we think.....

Almost every day now the "Food Addiction" and whether the food industry should be sued has been on the news. From CNN to, Discovery and the local channels. They are calling Fatty Foods the "Next Nicotine". It is only a matter of time, everyone is saying, before the big lawsuits will begin.

I hope the public understands that if the industry gets sued (little restaurants etc.) that they WILL be REQUIRED to actually COOK for themselves. Because this will definately harm the industry.

Jodi

[panini]

There is way to much negetive talk about fattening food here. Hey! Some of us make our living selling foods filled with butter, cream,sugar etc.
It's not my job to babysit the customers. Hey! Eat it till you blow up and pass on.!! The only down side is I loose a customer.
Now I say this in jest, but like Kyle says, I should have sence enough to know what's good for me.
I would like to sue MDon's, not for the food, but the 2-3 times a year we go there, you pull up,order,they take your money before you get the product, no receipt, then go to another hole in the wall they hand you your drinks and they tell you to pull around and wait for they didn't realize someone was going to order something. Fast Food? I think not!