[kuan]

Garde Manger is a skill forgotten don't you think? After all, how many establishments take cold food seriously? "Salad girl" blah we should stop saying that.

Kuan

[W.DeBord]

Ditto those thoughts Youla and Kuan. I'm a pastry chef and all the guys from the hot side would be envious of what I could do with pastries artisticly. They really didn't get it at all! I did my best to encourage their interests in garde but no one would even look at it seriously. It's every bit as interesting as pastry if you take it seriously and open a book!

I think most head chefs blow over it because they don't have the skills themselfs to teach it or lead the area. Once upon a time every head chef knew ice carving, now no one knows how to....

[W.DeBord]

Sorry I just went back and re-read this thread from the begining. I suppose I'm just beating a dead dog into the ground but unless your a women in this field you might not notice this. I'm sure your not interested in my mentioning this but I think it's important and I'm not going to let it slip...

"being called "salad girl" more frequently then anything else....sometimes they laugh, but I learn"


"hey shimmer/ you'll shake that salad girl tag"

"they only like girls in garde manger"


"Here's to the day when working in a restaurant becomes about teamwork instead of competition, workmenship instead of 'oneupmanship'"

You forgot to ad "Here's to the day when working in a restaurant becomes about teamwork instead of competition, workmenship instead of 'oneupmanship',skill instead of *** "...I didn't use the word "gender".

[cape chef]

It's true about ice carvings,I used to do them for our Sunday brunches years ago,and for special functions.I do feel however that except for large hotels and some catering halls,ice carving has become passe.I feel the use of natural..unmanipulated center peices are more invain these days.This translates right down to plate garnishing and butlered Hdo platters,I am in favor of fresh flowers or herbs,not carved vegetables for garnish.I also feel the level of skill requiered by garde manger in our time is very important.The art goes much deeper then chilled tenderlion with horseradish sauce or simple salads.Pates,terrines and charcrutier are being done less and less in the states.
instead I am seeing and supporting less processed foods,Sliced lacured breast of squab,Chilled venison medallions with red,black and black eyed pea chili served with a tomotilla-tomato salsa,Chilled seabass with artichokes hearts filled with oven roast tomato relish,pheasant legs stuffed with wild rice and dried fruits and the like.

It is a trained person to be able to produce such cold items,

as for pastry arts, I think the reason many line people do not participate in the pastry kitchen is because they are intimidated,The world of pastry arts is one grounded in true study and patience.There are more factors to consider when preparing pastrys then need to be considered by the savoury side.I feel lucky that I grew up in my Grandfathers bakery so I have a desent foundation in the pastry world,But I'm always learning.
I would feel somewhat stupid if I was trying to work with my pastry chef on any aspect of his developement if I was clueless to the detailed training and expertise thet goes into pastry arts.
cc

[W.DeBord]

That's the problem....it isn't passe at all! It just hasen't been brought into the modern world. I really can't look at a swan carved out of ice anymore but I've seen some beautiful clean lined scultures/trays that blow away everything else. I also laugh at tomato roses (which I still see) but the medium is wide open. It's a lost art that should be dismissed.

Country Clubs are still doing terrines, grand buffets all the old stuff, too. There's alot yet to be done to update garne...perhaps all the young ladies entering the kitchens who get pigeon holed doing salads will wake up this art...get the boys over to the salads and then move on to the line, ha!

P.S. Herbs....defineately boring! Over used, over kill, over done! It's like putting a pink carnation on your tray for garnish.

[pastry--chef]

Hey Youla
Just letting you know I agree 100% with you on what you said about being in a position and making the most of it and pushing yourself to make the best of any situation you are in. This is one of the things that comes with the experience of actually working in the kitchen rather than only being taught at school, I remember when I first started my apprentiship in a bakery scraping the trays as fast as possible so that someone would show me something different so i could learn more. Perhaps it shouldnt be, have you been to school or learnt on the job, but more like what was the attitude that you had when you approached the situation you are in.Ps the combined work and school combination of the Australian apprentiship I think is the best way to train some one up (I found very few egotistical (sp) apprentices, but they all seemed to have a broad knowledge both practical and theory) but im biased after working there for 2 years.
cheers Pastry Chef.

[cape chef]

W.Debord,

I understand what you are saying...But the use of herbs on plates is not like "placing a pink carnation" for your garnish.

A well presented plate need only to display it's components.color,texture,aroma and taste will do the rest.
cc

[youla]

hey Cape Chef now they are the kind of garde manger items I am talking about...they sound great...you can really let you imagination go wild,,,another thing I do is go to all the garde competitions...just to see whats happening...lot of old stuff...but some pretty good stuff to get ideas from....and by vegetable carvings...I dont mean your mundane tomato and carrot roses...I used to make whole scenes..and for a big buffet allthe other garnishes would follow from this scene..thanks for your words pastry chef as well.I just wish I could make the young kids here see it and see what they can get out of it...makes me feel so frustrated to see them missing out but I guess it is their choice to discover what is out there and what is actually under their own noses.

[kuan]

Even country clubs these days are demanding profitablity from their food departments. They definitely don't want some dork back there carving vegetables and making hacking up a piece of ice when there's an oven to be cleaned Most people don't understand what a Garde Manger does and definitely do not want to spend the $$$ on a good Chef. What they see when they spot someone whittling away at a daikon is their $$$ flying out the window. The attitude is "You don't get paid to do that."

Has anyone here ever had FOH people walk up to your tray of canapes and just pop one or two in their mouth, or put a dirty finger on your spotless tray? Anyone who has spent all day making canapes knows what I'm talking about. THAT really used to piss me off. You spend all day hollowing out the tomatoes, cutting the bread, making the "glues" and fillings, the mousses, picking the herbs, cleaning the shrimp, polishing the mirrors and trays, making the swan necks, etc. and people have no appreciation for that. Same goes for pastry kitchen. They think tourne potatoes come out of a can and icing comes out of a bucket.

Heh I'm glad I don't do that anymore

Kuan

[panini]

Schooling,the culinary education is nothing more than any other type of education. You will still need hands on experience, attorney,teachers,court reporters,doctors, I jest about the doctors and attorneys because our field, still is not recognized as a respected profession.
The dissapearence of Garde Manger and such positions is the fault of ourselves. We have stopped educating our guests based on the $$. Most of the younger diner's don't even know there food is not really presented as well as it can be. I'm not a classical garnisher per say, I feel all garnishing should be a part of the food and truly enjoyable to eat, but I rarely see anything anymore.
Don't be hard on those Culinary Graduates, for some reason some employers have fallen into the hype rap of the schools and they think schools are really graduating chefs.
just my 2 cents
Jeff

[W.DeBord]

Since I'm between jobs and occasionally look thru the help-wanted ads it really supprised me how many ads are currently specifing "culinary school graduate" and a specific number of min. years in business required. I don't recall seeing any requirements published in the past in news paper ads, (which aren't where the real jobs are), how long has this been going on?

Whats' with the cable t.v. comercial for the French Culinary Institute? At the end, some guy says he has soooo many restaurants he'll hire all you culinary grads???? I guess I should know who he is (but I don't). It's kind of funny seeing a school sell it's self like that.


I agree with old and wise "garnishing should be apart of the food and truely enjoyable to eat", if it's a tray on a buffet then a bunch of herbs are fine. But every idiot who thinks his 4 oz. of herbs per plate passes as a garnish grosses me out (certainly you've seen what I mean?). 9 times out of 10 it's over-kill.

I kind of think garde lost it's American following when we turned away from aspic/gelatin in the 70's and garde didn't change fast enough. Speed and $ is definately an issue, but you can't gain speed turning a veg. unless you practice.


Funny Kuan... the pastry kitchen thinks some similar thoughts about the hot side not appreciating their efforts, ha, oh well. Actually I rather like it when the waitstaff is hovering around to taste. It doesn't upset me in the least (they know they can't sample until it headed to the garbage), it means that I'm not serving the same old **** that their sick of. My old chef used to have big fights with the waitstaff when they showed any interest in eating left-overs. Personally I thought that was a HUGE mistake! They are either on your team or off your team and a restaurant needs both working together. We'd get young interested waitstaff and they wouldn't have a clue what many items where. A simple taste sampling to the waitstaff is so incredibly important....

[kuan]

LOL W! Hey I appreciate the pastry kitchen's efforts even though I'm just a cook! Hey whaddayaknow, I'm one of the few who can add and subtract Seriously though, it IS important for the waitstaff to know what they're selling. I love it when they show a passion for food. But you know, there ARE some of them who don't really care and casually pick at those petit fours like they just came out of a box.

How did this topic change anyway??

Kuan

[pastry--chef]

Perhaps we should change the topic to those annoying front of house staff (hang on thats been done to death). I actually get on really well with my front of house staff i've learnt that slipping them a couple of petiti fours does wonders when i need a good strong coffee or if friends come for dinner at the restaurant. A little bribery and corruption go a long way... Cheers Pastry Chef (Mike).

[monpetitchoux]

Well, the subject hasn't really changed. It started off being a vent about arrogant newbies coming into the kitchen believing that they know everything there is to know when they really don't know anything. When we started talking about waiters and others who know about just as little as the newbie who walked in. At the heart of this thread seems to be our resentment of people who don't appreciate all of our hard work in producing the delicacies that we do and our achievements in getting where we are. They also don't realize or appreciate the risky emotional investment we have made in excercising our passions. And their resistance to perform hard work seems to blind them to the face of opportunity. They will never become enlightened despite the time they spend in the kitchen if they don't care about what the serious folks in the kitchen do.

Now where do they get this attitude? I think its rather like the graduates of elite military institutions. Military grads immediately enter the armed forces as officers where as the folks who come straight from high school have to work their way up to that rank. I wonder what the friction is like between these two groups. The Culinary school grad might have the same pompous attitude when he enters his first kitchen, thinking he learned in school what the next guy who worked his way up from dishwasher gained by actual work. And worse, thinking that he can do as well or better than we can. Well, I say if they think they need not to learn anymore, then I need not offer them the opportunity. They can just prep the ingredients for me and clean up afterwards since they know what happens in between. When they realize that they are not learning anything, then we'll reconsider their role in the kitchen.

Hey Pastry Chef Mike, that's how I get the dishwashers to bring my stuff back to the pastry department as soon as they wash them for me. I still do most of the washing for the pastry dept. but the dish guys really deserve the desserts more. The waiters get tastes if and only of they come to the back and ask questions about the desserts including their garnishes. I always reward hard work and interest.

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: monpetitchoux ]

[holydiver]

I think it all comes down to the pople who own the restaurants they swallowed all the hype hook line and sinker. I see not only ads for cul school grad only but only CIA or J$W how ridiculous so if you have cooked for 15 or 20 years without a degree you are treated like a shoemaker and some 22 year old kid gets hired I just do not understand.