[MarkV]

This is a very difficult and touchy subject and we could split hairs forever on this one.

I hear what you're saying, a generalization is a generalization whether it's positive or negative. I agree.

I just feel that we have to go deeper than how people categorize their world, meaning making generalizations or not. It's the underlying sentiment that identifies one's position as prejudiced.

Someone who makes a positive statement about a particular group may be just as guilty of making an unproven generalization, but his heart is in a different place than the person who is malicious.

Just because one says that hispanics are hard working doesn't mean they have contempt for people who aren't, (whether the original premise is true or not).

You can have admiration for a group, (even if it is an unproven generalization), and still not have malice toward others.

But I guess you could argue that even without malice, positive generalizations are just as racist.

But for me, "racist" implies hostility.

With all that said, I truly hope I am not offending anyone.

Mark

[panini]

MarkV, I don't think anyone has offended anybody. I was not trying to battle, you're much more in tune with psycho social developement then I will ever be.
Ya know what Mark, you're absolutely right. After thinking about it, if it is nt malicious, I shouldnt be criticle about it. If it's true or not.
Being criticle on my part, or disputing it, shows prejudicy on my behalf. I guess all I really wanted to say is that agree with MikeFly thinking that that generalization is myth and probably generated from an area where Hispanics are a minority. I'm in an area where Hispanics are the majority and know that the statement is myth, so I'm prone to dispute it.
You did'nt offend me, you woke me up

[mikefly]

i think mr.bourdain is getting exactly the response to his statement that he wanted

[panini]

Oh yea,
That's why I refered to the statement as a "ploy", "catch"... actually it borders malicious That cigarette smoking racist! Guess that's why I like him.LOL

[MarkV]

Good point Mikefly.

Panini: Thank you for an objective discussion on the topic.

Apparently chefs are more reasonable in their thinking, "generally" speaking.

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk

Mark

[Pete]

When I wrote my previous statements, I clearly stated that these were my impressions and experiences, but I also feel that I gave very real, legitimate facts to back up my statements. And I am sorry, but I do believe that immigrants, whether they be hispanic, russian, Asian, etc. are harder workers than many (if not most) young American kids, especially when it comes to lower paying jobs. Too many young kids, feel they are owed a job, that they are doing you a favor by just showing up, that you owe them something. These are not myths, these are facts, that have played out time and again, in many restaurants I have worked at.

My other concern is about this whole PC thing. Political correctness is going to destroy the diversity of this world. Nobody can be different. We all have to be the same. We are not, and we shouldn't ever be! Class, culture, nationality, sex, and race (yes, even race) make a mark on who we are, and make us different. Yet, we shy away from any conversations pointing out differences, because someone might be offended. So instead of jumping the gun on this issue, and saying it is offensive, let's look at the situation, and discuss it rationally. There is obviously something to that initial statement, though it may be hyped and blown out of proportion. There must be some thread of truth in it, or why else would so many restaurants in this country carry such a large percentage of hispanics and other immigrants in the kitchen. Sure, it is the wage issue, but I don't think that is enough. There has to be another reason.

[panini]

Pete,
I'm sure your experiences are real. The generalization was that hispanics can cook whites under the table.
The sad part here is that the hispanics and other ethnic groups perform well in the lower end jobs for most of the time that is all that is available. Young Americans have much more opportunity, they really don't have to dip so low unless they are slackers with poor work habits. Our younger generation is truly remarkable in their advances in technology. Most are just As dedicated to what they are doing as the dishwashers or cooks. In some situations the respect one gets from these ethnic groups grows from fear. My son will never work in the hospitality industry. It is so antiquated and primitive in nature. It's not an acredited or respected profession as in some countries.
The United States is really made up of ethnic cultures. I absolutely agree and understand what you are saying when it comes to our younger generation, but keep in mind, we, the older generation(not you Pete, old farts like me) created and let this happen. Those qualities you see in other ethnic groups were here, the family structure, the respect, the compassion,the hard work... we're letting it slip away.
As far a PC, I'm not afraid to tell you that in my area there are more hispanics working our system ie: SSI, dissability, workmans comp, wic, food stamps, school vouchers etc. then any other race or culture here. They are the majority in population so the numbers dictate more slackers per cap.
The dishwashing and work chores are way beneath them, most of our good finds come from the younger american crowd, though most food service places prefer to go illegal. Something I won't do. That is where you get the respect/fear thing. It abuse.
I'm also blessed to be associated with many hispanics to grow our business. Fortunately we are able to treat everyone equally. Everyone owns a piece of the pie and are responsible for sucess or failure.
I'm going to bow out gracefully now. Luv you all!
pan

[Bijoink]

if you all think about it though me who am a hispanic am in college and not just that my boss gave me opportunities to move up in the restaurant world...panini if you do the stats and think about it they are always saying that we take the money but we take lower end jobs and triple that money that was needed for us to get where we are now... if there wasnt any hispanics in the system you white folks would be in the slums of an economic depression so i would be more appreciative and not so jealous cause the brown man can over cook you guys all and not to mention we got a better brain...according to recent studies the normal human white brain measures 1000to2000 cc while the brown man goes up to 2500cc making us capable of knowing more..

[panini]

Gosh, I bowed out of this BUT.
Bijoink. you seem to be offended by my comments. I pray that you are not. The folks I'm refering to don't elect to be in the system. Out Gov't puts them in. This is a way of life. They are born into it. We have babies having babies. The monies dispursed to these people is just a drop in the ocean compared to the monies earned and pumped back into the system through SS, and getting nothing in return. You will always hear stories about the INS, Gov't trying to close our borders from Mexico. I have done the stats and know that illegals pump billions of dollars into the SS system under fake or altered cards and will never draw on those monies. We can't afford to shut the door.
It really has nothing to do with cooking or our brains. I'm the son of an immigrant. My wife is a minority and my partner of 18 yrs is Hispanic. Do not mistake this for "one of my best friends is Blk." I just think I didn't express myself well and I hope I didn't offend you and appologize if I did. Not being PC, just being real.
Pan

[Pete]

Bijoink, you started this thread. You are the one who threw out quite a argumentive quote, and now you are upset by the way this conversation is going?! I agree with some of Panini's points and disagree with some, but I feel that we were having a good, intellectual debate. I am sorry if you took offense at Pan's last post but you have suddenly brought this conversation down to its basest level creating an Us vs. Them (the brown man vs. the white man) approach. It's too bad, because I really thought this conversation might go somewhere, make some people really think about some tough issues and their own thoughts and ideologies, but it looks like it will deteriorate from here. So I, like Panini shall leave this topic.

[Jim]

On day one, this topic made me as nervous as a long-tailed cat in room full of rocking chairs.
This forum is for the creative opinion, professional expression and personal insight of chefs and non-chefs, alike. That said, the nature of this discussion has changed and, before there is any further damage, I will lock this thread. I am leaving it posted because it started with a decent exchange of ideas grounded in an educational inquiry. It, however, has evolved, through no fault of anybody, into something other than that. Let's all just shake hands and call it a day.