[LogghiB]

Maybe Chicago is different from other parts of the world, but I get down right skeptical about people with culinary degrees. I always expect them to not show up or lop off a finger.

Besides, it's not like the Mexicans don't get seriously paid. They may not be able to hold a conversation with the GM, but they definitely know how to ask for a raise. The lowest paid people I've seen are kids with maybe a few months of pub food experience and a diploma, driving to work (late) in the SUV their parents bought for them. The Columbian grill guy who can temp a filet from a quarter mile isn't stupid when it comes to how much hourly wage he deserves. And he actually appreciates his job.

I find the idea of cooking being a career you need a formal education for as being sort of frightening. Kitchens are a place where people who can't afford to go to school can still go in and work their way up. One of the few trades where your pay and position is dictated by your own motivation, and not weird politics. (Although I guess kitchens carry their own deranged political systems.)

And yes, I feel better about a talented, hard-working guy being able to tend to his family (usually extending to relatives in his/her nation of origin) and making a good career than I do a talented, narcissistic culinary graduate working to open up some dodgy Asian fusion concept with the remnants of a trust fund.

[Laprise]

I agree logghib,

maybe the culinary trade should stay the way thing are right now! I do like the idea to have open doors for un-certified cooks, but unfortunately, it does not help our trade

I do have issues with workers being abused by corporations just because they come from somewhere else in the world.

Holland America is notorious for that... a CDP from Canada makes $2700.USD a month and for the same position a Philippino CDP makes $400.USD a month on the same ship... just because that $400 is worth more in the Philippine
I have seen this myself!

[foodpump]

Laprise, I've got a few holes to poke in your posts. Yes, the food biz is run by profit, what business isn't? That said, a Sizzler franchise can make a profit and it doesn't need qualified cooks, neither does a Denny's franchise or the Mom & Pop sandwich place in the light industrial areas. A "certified" cook wouldn't be happy in those places, but they exist and make a profit. Me, my first job was as a pimply 16 yr old washing dishes in a "Country Kitchen" franchise, and it didn't have any qualified cooks either, but I learned alot. Higher pay means higher menu prices, some places can swing it and still function and make a profit, others can't and have to rely on convienience foods and nation wide advertising. Start splitting tips with the wait staff and you'll have a riot on your hands and the Labour board seizing your accounts. Up the prices for the same quality food, same service and ambiance and you won't have any customers.

Now about certification, it's a dream. A good dream, but we dream to cope with reality and reality gives us incentive to dream. N. America is still cowboy style wild west when it comes to certification for our trade. It isn't recognized, period. Cooking is the second oldest trade in the world, and many European nations have Gov't recognized apprenticeship programs for it, for baking, for meat cutting, etc. Me, I did a 3 yr apprenticship program in Switzerland, same program as every other Gov't recognized cook in Switz., because there's only ONE, and it's the same program format for almost 40 years. Every one who graduates is on the same playing field, "Carrotes Vichy " are sliced, sweated in butter and shallots, and moistened with mineral water. The cook from Ticino, from Luzern, or from Geneva will have learned the same thing, albeit in French, German, or Italian, but it's the same dish, brain washed into us, along with the 14 methods of cooking.
We don't have that luxury here. Cooking school "X" pumps out "Chefs" every four months, and not even with "Foodsafe" certs either, "Y" does a decent job, but offers a multitude of courses, some 2 year, some 6 mth, some 2 weeks. Apprenticeships? Here in Canada we have 10 provinces and each one has different guidelines and demands. The apprentice from Sask. will not have studied the same curriculum as the Apprentice from Ont.. We've got CC's like SAIT, VCC, private cooking schools, post secondary cooking schools, you name it, there are countless courses out there, and each one with a "Certification" for Chef, food artist, whatever. It's Forrest Gump's box of chocolates for us employers, you never know what you'll get.

Gov't recognition and a encompassing, do-not-deviate-from-the-curriculum program for a certified cook? Won't happen. Not for a while anyway, and it doesn't matter if the entire nation is glued to the "Food network" and loves Emeril. No one to push for it except us whiners, and we're smart enough to stay out of politics. Professional bodies? I was (emphasis on was) a member of the BC chapter of the Chef's Assoc., 4 meetings I went to, and the only things covered were golf, golf tournies, and new members introductions who just happened to be sales reps. for large food distributors. Needs money and power to get a Gov't recognition for our trade, and a certain amount of politicking.

So we do what we do. Strive for better food, for better ingredients, for public education on food. We've come along way from 20 years ago when butter would kill you and you could live to be 100 if you sat on a mountain top spreading margerine on your bread, when chocolate was light brown, contained milk powder, and was very sweet, when the ony wine available was "Moody Blue" or Lonesome Charlie" or even that import stuff like "Schloss Laderheim"...

We'll pay for good cooks, and if the market bears our prices, we might even make a profit.

[cape chef]

Originally Posted by foodpump

So we do what we do. Strive for better food, for better ingredients, for public education on food. We've come along way from 20 years ago when butter would kill you and you could live to be 100 if you sat on a mountain top spreading margerine on your bread, when chocolate was light brown, contained milk powder, and was very sweet, when the ony wine available was "Moody Blue" or Lonesome Charlie" or even that import stuff like "Schloss Laderheim"...

We'll pay for good cooks, and if the market bears our prices, we might even make a profit.

Beautiful!

[DanBrown]

They don't need my help, their graduates speak for the system with high expectations of wage and lousy knife skills.

And again I'll re-state my point, and lay it out in other terms. When you grow up cooking, and your working to feed your family (not pay off student loans) you tend to work from a different motivational core. It's a core that rings very true to me. It's one that I understand.

[panini]

Lapster,
Is an OK concept, just the wrong place to start it. I've always thought we should be working towards a certified profession. Just not going to happen.
It needs to start at the top with SOPS. The groups out there representing us are basically groups/clubs. Heck, my local health department can't agree on the interpretation of FDA guidelines.
Your job as an employer is to see that anyone willing to work, that has a passion for this type of work, gets a well rounded education and a career from you. Not pidgeoned holed into one specific job. I feel that is one of the down sides of certification. I've seen it in all fields. Certification leads to specialists. The last thing this industry needs is a Sautee Specialist or Muffin Specialist. I'm all for specializing, but after an all around success.
I left the buzz because I felt I was just filling holes when it came to hiring. Bottom line was dictating that I couldn't cross train and teach.
Now I sleep well at night knowing that anyone who works with us can leave at anytime and get employment, and will be successful.
This field is large, almost a race. enacting hiring practicies like that is almost racist.
Certification is one of the reasons my son will never enter this business. Family business is going away quickly, there are so many soaking the industry, including some schools.
We can't or won't even carry out the laws we have now. There was a large bridal show here in town, one of our workers said there was 32 wedding cake vendors. We only have 16 licensed here. The others are working illegal out of their homes.This takes a huge chunck of our business. I've had to redirect our business 2 or 3 times over the last couple of years. I'd love to see certification. Not gonna happen.
pan

[Chef_Bob]

Panini

I think you raise a good point about law enforcement. One of the issues as I see it (keeping in mind I am in Ontario and I know that the laws differ from province to province and country to country) is that there are very few laws governing our industry.

Here is an example. If I want to go out and get my hair cut. The person cutting my hair must have formal training, have gone through an apprenticeship and be licenced by the governement. BUT I can go have lunch some place that has not one person on staff who has even taken a food safety course let a lone any formal training.

In my opinion this does little to help the credibility of our industry.

There are two sides to every coin. Yes having only trained cooks would cost more money, no doubt. It would probabally eliminate some of the very cheap restaurants in all of our market places (both corporate and indipendant). But as professionals would it increase the caliber of food being put out. In the long run I beleive yes. I also beleive it would reduce the odds of major food safety issues (Jack in the box, Chi-chi's etc.). In the long run would it result in cooks being paid more, yes I think it would.

Will it ever happen? I am not betting my milk money on it.

In Canada the profession of cook is considered a trade and I have no problem with it being regulated as other trades are. As for the example of doctor that was used by some, give me a break. Are you telling me that you would let some one who has never been to medical school and is not licenced by the governement come at you with a knife, or a lazer? Thinks about that.... really would you!?!?! I sure as heck wouldn't.

Just one guys opinion.

[cheflayne]

"A greate way to help this situation is for head chefs to only hire certified cooks in their kitchens."
I am curious as to how this would generate better wages?

[MarkV]

Originally Posted by cheflayne

"A greate way to help this situation is for head chefs to only hire certified cooks in their kitchens."
I am curious as to how this would generate better wages?

Not that I agree with the idea, I'm just answering cheflayne's question from an economic point of view:

Suppose only "certified" cooks could be hired in restaurants. You would immediately reduce the supply of cooks, (since all cooks non-certified would be eliminated from the work force). At the same time, enacting such a practice would increase the demand for certified cooks, (since eateries that used to hire uncertified cooks now must only hire certified ones).

Like any commodity, if the supply goes down or the demand goes up, the price goes up. In this scenario both supply would drop and demand would rise, thus causing an increase in the cost of labor, i.e. salary.

These are just the cold facts. Not my sentiment.

Mark

[phatch]

Related to MarkV's comments, the price of the food served would go up. This would probably reduce demand. So the income to the restaurant might stay about the same meaning the profit margin is reduced. Or the income might drop and the restaurant goes out of business. It is not likely that income would go up.

Phil

[Laprise]

Well,
I think everyone agree, this is a hot button for many people. Profit does run the world, and restaurants are no diferent

This will most likely never happen because we are finding out that it would be EXTREMALY COMPLEX to make such a change in our industry.

I don't believe that cook should enter this business for the money, but more for the love of food, the adrenaline ruches, and chance to be in a creative environment with other crazy cooks

MarkV is right, the offer and the demand does help increase salary in general. We often see it in area where no one wants to go cook.

[Peachcreek]

I find the people who complain the loudest are the ones that get paid what they are worth.
THATS why they are so unhappy.....

[panini]

Originally Posted by MarkV

Not that I agree with the idea, I'm just answering cheflayne's question from an economic point of view:

Suppose only "certified" cooks could be hired in restaurants. You would immediately reduce the supply of cooks, (since all cooks non-certified would be eliminated from the work force). At the same time, enacting such a practice would increase the demand for certified cooks, (since eateries that used to hire uncertified cooks now must only hire certified ones).

Like any commodity, if the supply goes down or the demand goes up, the price goes up. In this scenario both supply would drop and demand would rise, thus causing an increase in the cost of labor, i.e. salary.

These are just the cold facts. Not my sentiment.

Mark

Mark, morally this could never happen. All current workers would be grandfathered in. Then the bill for all this training will be put back on the company/owner.
Small business would vanish(would make georgie very happy). Food service would have to monopolize. OMG what a mess. The end result would be outrageous prices for food, and a medeocre product at best.
Also remember, to all those cooks out there, I would not be surprised if there would be any fast-tracking in the industry.
pan

[Mikeb]

This is a topic that always upsets me. I am 21 years old, uncertified, no post-secondary education of any kind (ie. no culinary school), and I've been a chef de partie in several well-known award winning restaurants (after a short apprenticeship). I've trained and been responsible for more culinary school grads than I care to count. Yet because I am uncertified, I don't deserve to be where I am? (of course my current employer feels I'm a valuable asset)

Or how about the certification process itself? I'm in the process of getting certified, but so far my efforts have been bogged down by bureaucratic nonsense. They won't even let me write the tests! Why, because I didn't go to school.

As for hiring only 'certified' cooks, this will never happen. Chefs know there is some serious talent out there, and will do what is best for their business. Not to mention that employers pay for your current work, not for your past education.

Anyhow, rant /off, needed to vent some frustrations.

[epicous]

Originally Posted by Laprise

A greate way to help this situation is for head chefs to only hire certified cooks in their kitchens. The more restaurants hires non-certified cooks, the more it undermine our industry and skills.

I am all for hiring apprentices, but that's it. Everyone else should be certified!

Can you please give us a link where we can observe the requisitions for certifying?
Is there an international certification?
Can you recommend books with all topics that cooks must know?


Thanks.