How to create better wages for Cooks?

[MarkV]

Originally Posted by panini

Mark, morally this could never happen.

I concur. There would be immense obstacles to switching the food industry to the kind of hiring guidelines Laprise suggests.

But holding all other factors constant, curtailing the labor pool would allow supply and demand to exert their effects on salary.

If I were a restaurant owner I wouldn't want to be constrained by such hiring regulations. There's an immense amount of talent out there that never stepped foot in a classroom.

Mark

[Pete]

I am glad that this thread is 3 pages long. My first reaction to this post was to really go off, but now that I have read all the posts, I have calmed myself a bit.

While I think that "certification", whatever that means, can be a good thing, I don't think it could, or should, be the end all, be all that Laprise as suggested. There are a couple of reasons for this:

#1. I don't think that limiting the work force would do this industry much good. As pointed out, there are many great cooks out there that have had no formal education or training. Some of the best cooks I have ever worked with are latinos. They initially took up cooking because it was better than working in a factory, but they have turned into awesome cooks. Plus many of them (not all of them, in my experience, so please don't flame me for making a general statement) are very happy just cooking. They don't want the responsibility of running a kitchen. If I pay them well, and earn thier loyalty I don't have to worry about losing them to other kitchens as they move thier career upwards. So not only do I benefit from having great skilled labor that is loyal to me, I also can take the time to train other young kids who will use me as just one stop in their career path, and not worry about leaving myself without a good kitchen staff. I have the best of both worlds and everyone benefits.

#2. From a financial standpoint I don't think this industry could handle moving to all certified cooks. As stated earlier diners, mom & pop places, or small, independent places could not afford such a move. They would be put out of business. Eating out is a luxury, not a neccessity. Start pricing yourself too high and the public will react by not going out as often. There is a threshold where the public will say "no more". So yes, these places rely on cheaper help, whether it is foreign help or local. This industry all ready has crappy profit margins, a change such as this would bankrupt countless more restaurants and in the long run all you would have are chain restaurants because they would be the only ones who could afford to stay in business.

[foodpump]

Well, if you look at Europe, unqualified cooks still are around and desparately needed. When I was working at the Baur au Lac, a 5 star place in Zürich, the staff cook was an uncertified cook, and a lot of Mom & Pop places don't have certified (apprenticed) cooks either, or maybe just one certified cook with several uncertified helpers. Price of food is astronomical, and almost every place is forced to use some processed products because of the high labour cost. There are some excellent products out there. One rest. chain, Mövenpick, has a central plant that produces high-quality ice cream, smoked salmon, coffee, soups and sauces, baked goods, etc. and farms this out to their many (over 200) branches. Mc D's does exist in many European countries, albeit with astronomical prices.

I dunno, if you want to start certifying, I'd start with the business owner first. The failure rate of food businesses here in N.A. is far higher than in Europe. All you need here is money and a dream, and I think everyone has stories about so-and-so who sold his accounting biz to start up a nice little steak and pasta place... In many parts of Europe you need a restauranteurs license to open up and get a business license, and this demands a one year course. If this would be implemented here in N.A. it would be a start, and fairly quicky (well, relatively) to set up, say within 10 years? I'm sure the health dept's and other various gov't bodies (labour board, worker's comp, tax guys) wouldn't complain. If we could get this kind of stability, things might go better in tems of salary and eduction for not only cooks but all foodservice employees.

[Laprise]

Originally Posted by epicous

Can you please give us a link where we can observe the requisitions for certifying?
Is there an international certification?
Can you recommend books with all topics that cooks must know?


Thanks.

To my knowledge, there is not JUST ONE international certification, but more like Canada and USA, many diferent ones.

All the qualified people on this TREAD from all sides of the business have made good constructive positive points. There is a need for it... I do think that this is one way to improve a situation, COMMUNICATION BRAVO and keep talking...

[ChefJosh]

If you really want to bring the wages for cooks up. Open a restaurant, pay your "certified only" cooks twice what everyone else does, and make lots of money. Become so successful that people copy you. I'm not making light of your idea, the fact is the only way to change an industry is from the inside out the.

I personally believe that the industries labor practices are flawed in many ways. Pay is often not equal to skill and ability. Cooks are often pushed to extremes working 80+ hrs, or the opposite, made to work six or seven days a week just to get close to 40 hrs. Often job descriptions are vague but **** hath no furry like a chef scorned. Even in good paying places the competition creates a self destructive moral where cooks sabotage others to keep there jobs safe.

After 15 years in food-service in every kitchen position and all types of establishments. I firmly believe that the reason the industry has such a high failure rate is bad management.

It can be done differently and people that are willing to do things differently will lead the way. When you take care of your staff they will bring in the profits. Its amazing how hard people will work when they are a vital part of success.

When I'm hiring I pay more attention to attitude, confidence, and excitement about learning than previous experience in food, certification, or the language they speak. I can teach anyone that wants to learn, how to cook, but I can't teach a cook not to be an a-hole.

OK Ill Step Off My Soap Box.
Good Luck all
Ill see you in the trenches, I'm the bald one singing "A World of My Own"

[panini]

well said chef.
It is absolutely up to us!!
Our group is small. We have 18yr vets. We don't post schedules. The work is done. Pay is not an issue! Noone is there for the money.
EVERYONE with more then a year in (all of us) have a piece of the action. We have built the business for acquisition(but I'm sure the employees will buy it) if not they have a payday coming along with the owner. If the business is sucessful so are they.
We put too much into business. Sometimes you have to take it back to two cigar boxes. in and out. What's left is profit.
Chefjosh, I'm right there with ya. When we are hiring we will give the applicant a kitchen test. If decorating a cake. We'll supply them apron,basecake and let them have at it. I could care less what the cake looks like. I'm watching, nerves, temper, if they will seek out tools, if they ask others for help or guidence. How fast they acclimate and things of this nature. It's my job to teach them skills, I can't however teach personality.
Gosh, this sounds like a con. any employee can be reached for comment at the shop, be my guest.
pan
sorry edit. I dissagree that cooks or anyone should not go into cooking for money. Bottom line is, a job is how we support and have a life away from work.

[Plongeur]

Here in France, you don't need 'Certificatiion' - a formal qualification - to open a restaurant, but it helps. If you do have a qualification then you're entitled to take on stagiaires and apprentices paid for by the government, so that makes it attractive to lots of people.
There are several people running 'Chambres d'Hote' - B&Bs - in my cookery classes. They're doing it because there are plans to make it compulsory for anyone who works in kitchens serving food to the paying public to have some sort of basic knowledge of health and safety, which we get in our lessons. Not everyone will be forced to do a one-year course - it'll be available as a two-week or similar program, day a week sort of thing as well, but they're getting in ahead of the rush.

[Nentony]

I've been waiting to see if anyone would bring it up, and I can't believe I'm gonna. What about collective bargaining, unions. I'd rather eat microwaved turkey on Thanksgiving than belong to one myself, but in a discussion on raising wages, certification, apprenticeship, regulating and what all, I'm suprised. I guess most cooks are too independant.

Tony

[robinchev]

Originally Posted by ChefJosh

If you really want to bring the wages for cooks up. Open a restaurant, pay your "certified only" cooks twice what everyone else does, and make lots of money. Become so successful that people copy you. I'm not making light of your idea, the fact is the only way to change an industry is from the inside out

I agree. Obviously this is a touchy subject for a lot of people...in general, I think that if you believe that only certified people should be hired, then you should only hire certified people. If your system is better, eventually it will catch on.
"I may not agree with your opinion, but I will defend to the death your right to hold it."

[Peachcreek]

http://channels.netscape.com/careers...-tos-feat-h-01

I find the people who complain the loudest are the ones that get paid what they are worth.
THATS why they are so unhappy.....

Hehehe.

[Jolly Roger]

There are two major worms in our hiring process when it comes to looking for cooks: 1.) Illeagals that trade social security numbers when one comes into the U.S. and one leaves and will work for peanuts because they have a secondary job and don't mind working 80 hours a week for the next six months because that's about five years of wages where they come from. A side point, most of the time they come to our country with no knowledge of safe food handling, knowledge of international cooking styles, and a disregard for cleanliness. Don't hire these guys. That's about seventy percent of our collective problem. As a chef, I won't hire anyone unless I know they are, at the very least, ServeSafe certified. Haven't got that certification yet? Then I don't even want you changing urinal cakes in the men's bathroom! 2.) Anyone who walks in the door and talks the talk, but can't walk the walk. When I interview potential cooks, sous chefs, pastry chefs, I ask a litaney of questions that they should know. I will know what someone's skill set is in a matter of ten minutes. It's not rocket science if you are in the seat of deciding. Bottom line is: Illeagals, even if they are good, won't stick around and may get you in a **** load of trouble and hacks that don't know their *** from their elbow will just make more work for other established cooks, and the mentally lazy chef that hired them.

[freddychef]

There seems to be a few overlapping concerns in this thread. I'll stick to `getting cooks/chefs higher wages`. I've been in this business for about 15 years now, coming at it from neccessity but finding my passion. As a daydreaming dish doggie I quickly learned that the passion would counter the fact that my monetary situation was in, and would be, dire straits for some time.

I to came into cooking with no training but homecookin`. I did though receive institutional training tp support my self-directedness as I grew as a cook. But back to wages.

I live in a part of Canada that historically and in the present has the lowest minimum wage across the board including the Hospitality and Tourism sector of the economy. The way in which I increase MY wages is to leave every year for the mainland to work seasonal. A six month tourism season versus two--simple math. The actual wages that I earn are based on economy of scale, requirement of industry and negotiation so that accomodations and food are often included. The actual wage made is probabaly 40 to 50% higher than what you earn on paper as my costs of living are covered.

Now that is just one case of a variegated industry. The seasonality of employment affords higher wages for a part of the year....but when I get home....since the minimum wage is so low here,and no real season , looking for employment is non-consequential upon return.The migratory process is the avenue. Having said that however, what of the low wages here or there, or anywhere.? It would seem that in my opinion and experience wages are tied to economy of scale. I have found a short term venue to improve my own sitaution. BUT HERE?

Another story. Wages are not improving like in other sectors of the economy. Chefs/cooks and any and all workers in Hospitality and Tourism are for the most part the lowest paid sector of the Canadian economy. Why is this? I would quickly argue the lack of bargaining units with companies is the main reason, but also the lack of forsight on the part of management to see the benefits of a stable staff.

It would seem that whether it is seasonal, or a full time gig in a restaurant or hotel, or what have you the low wages are often desribed as `what the market can bear`--in my exp, this is simply what management can bear--in other words wages are kept low as to not pull from profits..a common endeavour. In many cases this practice often means a high transient cooking population, the usage of unskilled labor, constant training (increasing costs)labor and food) really over time) and inferior products and conduct in many kitchens.

Earlier posts mentioned that certificaion is a way in which wages( and benefits) somehow could be addresses and increased. Moreover in doing so stability in the industry could be enabled. Recently this question was posited at the CCFCC web site as an industry driven survey. Ironically the idea of a steady, happy cooking population was suggested by management once more. The idea that collective bargaining to enforce industry standards for workers is not implied as an avenue to persue. Ergo, the idea of higher wages seems to be of no concern!!!

The point . as I do digress, and apologize, is that increased wages are not
seen as a way to have better cooks??!!

After all of these years and witnessing many situations where good cooking takes a back seat because the cooks (and related staff) are unhappy....I have taken it upon myself to ask many `what is wrong`--and the reply nine chances out of ten is ` a lack of pay for my work, no benefits, no stability, no career path.....and of course movin on...again and again....

So I end by thinking that while a universal system of standards coud be a culinary holy grail, it will probably never happen. I do believe that (in my exp) companies, large and small who pay decent wages are benefitting in the long run by having a happier, stable staff.

So I conclude by thinking that the onus for obtaining higher wages, secure positions, is up to each cook, each manager....each location.....freddychef

[Laprise]

Nicely said "Freddychef"

I do agree that it is up to the cooks to negotiate themselves better wages on an individual basis...

I also agree that wages should be according to skills, and skills have not necessarely anything to do with a diploma but more what happen after school! The good thing, is that you can still get a cooking diploma from a trade school for free, which help the youngs that can't afford CIA or French Culinary Institute... and the final result is sometime as good....

With that said, I would like to see the industry in general to be a bit more structure around certifications instead of profits. I do understand that you need profits to pay better wages, but most of the time the extra money goes aywhere but to the cooks...

I don't have to worry about that anymore myself, but I am still cooking for a living and I would like to help if I could by improving the present situation for future cooks... Maybe I should run for a politic seat

Anyway, great comments all around...

[panini]

Jolly Roger,
I'm sure you know a good majority of aliens have work papers. There are very little true Americans here.
I am not pro illegal, but I certainly won't label them as dirty worms.
It is not the fault of the illegals that the government has decided to discriminate on who gets to be here or not. For years their parents were allowed to be here. Looking back, this is probably how we all got here. I am the son and grandson of a WOP and very proud of it.
Thank God my co-workers found me before the encountered someone like you. I don't believe you got to the second worm and I'm not sure I want to know. Fact is, there are probably seniors members of your family receiving Social Security. You can thank the illegal worms for that. There would be no income for these people without them. These worms have mothers, fathers, families.
They are human too. To label a whole race as having a disregard for cleanliness is hum?? can't think, oh maybe Archie Bunkerish? Actually Archie also had the gift to judge someone in ten minutes also. I only posted, for your last sentance twisted me a little.

[Jim]

With that said, I would like to see the industry in general to be a bit more structure around certifications instead of profits

Focus on certifications INSTEAD of profits? Of course they do... it's called the Peace Corps.


What business owner (paying for food, beverage, insurance, wages, utlities, and the myriad of other things) is NOT going to focus on profit? Acutally, I think there are people like that... I see them standing in front of the unemployment office... wearing their certification-embroided chef coat. You are an industry vet, how could you sell that notion to the industry?