[Evil-gal]

I'm living and working in Ireland. The situation over here is crazy. There's a huge difference between properties... Hotels pay low wages and expect long hours, and they are the ones who demand certification. Some restaurants pay huge money and will hire enthusiasm rather than certification, which is fine. Many though, hire anybody who can string three words of English, pay them crap wages and have no food quality coming out of the kitchen as a result.

The biggest problem I see is that the chef's colleges are sending out less than a quarter of what they used to (young students are very disillusioned about long hours and Head chef's with tempers.) This means that there aren't many commis or c de p's being trained. Junior C de P wages have gone from €18-20k to €30k+ in 5 years, and that's what chef's are demanding. When they don't get it they leave the industry.

This coincides with the Accession states being allowed to work here, and suddenly there's a huge influx of people, willing to work for half nothing. Some of them take to it like a duck to water, some only do it to pay the bills. There's a huge range of experiences for young chefs out there, and there's a much higher proportion of negative experiences than positive.

[freddychef]

I often read many posts on various topics at well, various sites. I try not to get knee deep in tangents and diatribes, but just a point to those who wish to use such forums for disingenuous commentary..the discussion is about wages, not an electronic attempt at debasing those with which we wish to discuss the occupations and trades.

I do speak spanish, and french in limited ways, and I have worked for quite some time, and MY reality is not the same as others. I had thought that my comments were pretty straight forward as to `the reality checkin` assumption....I thought that by offering a comment or two from a bit of a diffrent angle would be my two cents worth.

That said, we all wish to strive for better working conditions, long stable careers and if this is a pipe dream, opposing it with disgruntled employees (ers), terrible working conditions, bad wages, then that at least should be open for discussion?

The fatalistic assumption of `that is the way it is, just deal with it`does not cut it.. by having open discourse on the subject maybe someone's opnion or situation changes for the better....it is by action that we can make this a better area of passionate employment...freddychef

[foodpump]

My experiences are similar to Evil-gal's. After completing my apprenticeship, I took my first job as a newly minted cook at Baur au Lac, in Zürich, a 5 star hotel, whose Chef had a long string of credentials. Pay? Aboslutely minimum, the minimum amount set by the Swiss Labour board. Clothes, knives, and other equipment were supplied by yourself. You did get a laundry allowance, again right on the minimum set by the labour board, which didn't even pay for laundry soap. This was a common theme in all good 4 and 5 star places, you got paid the minimum and worked for the experience, and most importantly, the testemonial, or letter of reference.

Yup, all good cooks should be paid to what they're worth. But who's gonna pay? Take this example and comment on it:

Mom and pop diner, clean, but cheap. Special of the day is lasagna. It's a good one. The cook actually took whole chuck, cut it finely, sauted it properly, braised it properly with real stock and tomatoes. He actually made a real bechemel, and layered the lasagna with it and ricotta. Simple, honest, good food. With a salad and home made vinaigrette and maybe a piece of home made focaccia, what would you pay for it?

Honestly, what would you pay for it? $6.00? $7.00? under $10.00? What do you think the cook earns? To make what I described takes a good command of cooking techinques, skill, and respect for the ingredients. In a 4 or 5 star kitchen the above mentioned cook could survive and flourish with those skills. But it's a mom & pop place, if the cook doesn't own the business, then he/she is earning buck minimum, and probably is holding down a few other jobs as well.

Not saying all good food must come from 5 star places, and only 5 star places can afford to pay cooks what they're worth. But those are the only places people are willing to pay for good cooks. As a result most places, places were people eat almost every day, not just for special occasions, sell convience food, frozen packaged lasagna, frozen soups, powdered stocks, etc, ad nauseum. There might be a lot of good cooks, but there aren't that many places for them where customers are comfortable to pay for food to make it possible for those cooks to earn what they deserve.

Oh, and Laprise, you were saying something about profits? Theres an old saying about restaurant owners, goes something like this:

If you want to make small fortune with a restaurant, start off with a large fortune....

[Peachcreek]

My labor cost is up to me. If I want to hire monkeys, scabs, illegals or anything else that is my perogative. But the fact is that I know what I can spend on staff. But my experience is that if I pay for good help I get good help.
My agreement with my staff is "If you want a bigger slice of the pie, cut it in less pieces". Meaning- If 5 people do the work of 7, I am willing to pay that amount I would have paid the 7. We also tip-share WHICH IS LEGAL. Did I also mention that by hiring people with TALENT I am able to pay them more by NOT RELYING ON RTU PRODUCTS! And what do I get out of it? REMARKABLY LOW STAFF TURNOVER! Staff turnover is disruptive and expensive and probably why so many restaurants fail. Whether in large or small settings.
I did an analysis of my total cost of goods and determined that I could comfortably raise labor cost by careful management of foodcost. As long as my actual COGS are at or below my my target COGS, and maintain product and service integrity, then why not pay the employees instead of screw them.
btw- if someone with enough talent to make an amazing handmade meal and get $6.00-$7.00 they need to get a business manager. It is either over-the-top for the clientele or way below what it is worth. "5-star" is worth something no matter where it is served......
And I agree with your quote Foodpump. That is why my motto has been "Attrition is my friend".....

[panini]

Peach,
That thinking is soo rediculous. It's rational, makes sense, can't work!!
How dare you analyze your cogs to shave a bit, to add to you labor cost.
Did they say you could do that in school?
Wait! Since I charge 46 bucks for a cake when everyone around me is at 20. Does that mean that I can pay my pastry chef of 18 yrs more then the hotels pay for exec. chef. give him a car,phone etc. can I pay everyone else, the pay that most exec pastry chef make. Does that mean I can take a sanitation person and put them on pulled sugar for a month. Does that mean I can cross train everyone in the kitchen. Can I run with a 31% labor cost?
Can I acually give a annual piece of the bakery to all full time employees?
NO WAY A MOM AND POP 1200. SQ. FT. BAKERY CAN DO THAT!!!!!
READ THE BOOKS!!! PEACH, YOU CAN'T BE SUCESSFUL DOING THAT!!!!

[Peachcreek]

I'll bring up your points at our Shareholders Meeting this summer in Bora Bora.

Another benefit of stable trustworthy employees- we take vacations. Lots of vacations....

[kuan]

Peach is not human. His food cost is something ridiculous like 3%. OK maybe not, but insane low. Care to let it out Peach old pal?

[foodpump]

Nobody's answered my question, what would you pay for a lasagna in a mom & pop diner?
Me, I've got the inside scoop. It's a diner, and not in the downtown core, so most people would pay no more than $7.95, including salad and foccacia, and would probably expect and demand a free coffee with it too. What makes me so sure? I was there. I owned a place like that, and what I've described is how I cook, don't know any other way. I know personally from experience that the same food would sell for $12.95 or even $15.00 in a better area, but customers will only pay the absolute minimum. I've seen other places across the street from me sell frozen mnfctr stuff for less than $7.95 and they somehow survive. Customers won't pay more than that in our area, so either sell crap that doesn't need a cook to do it, or do something else. To put it into other words, "The market sets the prices".

So what? What's this got to do with cook's salaries? Well, I can be Santa and pay my employees what they're worth, irregardless of what I sell the food for, and go bankrupt quickly, or I can sell the food for what the market will bear, and pay the employees accordingly. Is it fair to be penalized for where your restaurant is located, or the decor, or the type of food it sells even though it is prepared with the best ingredients and excellent cooks?

No it's not fair, it's kind of like being paid according to your gender or race, not your abilities or skills. But customers won't pay higher prices if you don't have walnut paneling and $500 chairs, even though the food is good and the cooks are trained and perform their duties well. Reality sucks, doesn't it?

[panini]

foodpump,
You're absolutely right. I understand exactly what you are saying. That's the reason why this crazy idea of standardizing will never happen.
I gotta tell you though, price isn't an issue when it comes to quality food. For me, anyway.
I'm blessed to have the situation I have. But I did take a huge risk. I pay an outrageous rent! I put myself in the middle of 4 bakery franchises(within walking distance) I was called an idiot! Every person on this board would have nixed my business plan, as did the banks.
If you going to bring a quality business into the area, the biggest problem is to educate the customer. I figured if I was going to bang my head against the wall trying to do so, I made sure the demographics were right. average income within a 3 mile radius 5 yrs ago was 3.5.

[Peachcreek]

So what? What's this got to do with cook's salaries? Well, I can be Santa and pay my employees what they're worth, irregardless of what I sell the food for, and go bankrupt quickly, or I can sell the food for what the market will bear, and pay the employees accordingly. Is it fair to be penalized for where your restaurant is located, or the decor, or the type of food it sells even though it is prepared with the best ingredients and excellent cooks?

It has nothing to do with what you sell. It is the ability to sell something profitably. If the labor cost on lasagne is too high, then either raise the price, cut down on portion size, or find something that you CAN make and sell profitably and forget about lasagne completely. Another reason that so many restaurants fail is that people confuse being able to cook with have a salable product. If I didn't see a need for the kind of business that I do, I would have never opened one. I'm not here to educate the consumer. I am here to provide a service that I can provide at a price that the consumer is willing to pay.
So from everything I know its seems that cooks and chefs bear the brunt of economic hardship brought on by bad business decisions. Hmm. Thats is what you get when the field is overrun with lots of people of varying degrees of education/ certification and little ability. And sadly we agree to let them make the rules.


And as for my food cost? How does the old song go?-

Oh Peachcreek!
Oh Peachcreek!
How could you be so mean?
To have had invented the Sausage-Meat machine?....

Just kidding. If you are old enough you probably know the rest!

[foodpump]

"... It has nothing to do with what you sell. It is the ability to sell something profitably. If the labor cost on lasagne is too high, then either raise the price, cut down on portion size, or find something that you CAN make and sell profitably and forget about lasagne completely."..

Been there, done that. After two months at the diner I came to a paradigm. My market wouldn't respond to what ever I did. Yeah, I was young and foolish, with my wife we bought a diner in a light industrial area. That was my market, the employees (about 2,000 of a light industrial area) and price was King, no one cared a rodent's derriere about quality, but if you cut down on the portion size, word was all over the place that you were "cheating". So I was in a sticky situation, having just invested my life savings in a business and couldn't sell a meal to save my life, irregardless of the quality. Good thing my wife has brains. If the market wouldn't pay what we needed to exist, we would find another market. One that wouldn't penalize us for not having a fancy dining room. We started off with catering, and have been doing so ever ever since, we're in our ninth year now. But I want to highlight something to you:

After our 3rd year we had started to make ourselves a name for catering. Through a friend's (and our client's) recommendation a customer wanted us to cater for her Husband's retirement party. The woman worked in a business in our area and had eaten at our diner. After negotiating a menu and price, the woman insisted for a 20% discount. Why? Because we were "the deli down the street" . No other reason. Although the food would be presented on silver platters, brass and chrome accented chafers, on our crisp white linens, and in her own home, we were still being penalized for being what we were. We were not allowed to be judged on our skills, food or service. This attitude comes up time and time again with new clients who balk at our prices, "Why, you're only slightly cheaper than X (a well established, reputable caterer), You're still small, right? How can you do this?

So to quote you again, "It has nothing to do with what you sell. It is the ability to sell something profitably."

How do you do this? How does McD's sell a burger profitably when the packaging, overhead, and condiments cost almost as much as the product? Advertising, yeah sure, but most importantly, IMAGE. Why do people line up, make plans to eat in a renown 5 star place, and don't bat an eyelash when they drop $200 for a meal? Image. Why do people leave a 20% tip in a fancy place and refuse to tip a waitress in a diner even though she provides just as good service, and has a something that really counts in between her ears? Image.

People, that is customers, won't pay the prices it needs to pay salaries to qualified staff if the house doesn't have an "image". But there are only so many places that can afford to have an "image" and a lot more cooks and other qualified staff that deserve a better salary.

[AprilB]

OK, do you mean that all of the massive numbers of dining establishments throughout the hundreds of National Parks could SURVIVE using only certified chefs? Slave labor still exists.

When I worked in Yellowstone most of the people were unskilled and evaluated for various positions in food establishments throughout the park over a short training period. It was a nightmare. Do you think that they could operate without the minimum wage help? No. The food might be better, but they really don't care.

On the other hand:

I do take issue with all of that train of thought. I've been cooking since I was pulling taffy with my grandmother at 7 years old. Just because she wasn't a certified "cullinary academy" do you honestly believe I didn't learn anything?

Food is an artistic passionate sensual skill. You either have it or you don't. Any person can be taught how to chop an onion, but is it a be all end all thing you just do or are you constantly thinking about the next step? Or what else you could do with that little onion?

My daughter has been helping me since she was 6. She makes the most brilliant omelettes/chinese omelettes/eggs I've ever had. She's now 14. Are you telling me that she has to go to some school to certify what she already knows how to do?

Life is too short to eat bad food. Or skip over brilliant cooks just because they can't afford the 25k+ tuition to get "certified" and waste time in a school if they are already intuitive and passionate about cooking.

April

[Laprise]

QUOTE:
Life is too short to eat bad food. Or skip over brilliant cooks just because they can't afford the 25k+ tuition to get "certified" and waste time in a school if they are already intuitive and passionate about cooking.

Hey AprilB,

you don't have to spend 25K to get a culinary certification, actually many programs are free, and many more in the $2000 to $6000 range!

Just remember, the school and/or the cost of the school does not make the cook. Education is a good thing! It will help anyone reach their full potential with a culinary base, much quicker than without it...

[Peachcreek]

After our 3rd year we had started to make ourselves a name for catering. Through a friend's (and our client's) recommendation a customer wanted us to cater for her Husband's retirement party. The woman worked in a business in our area and had eaten at our diner. After negotiating a menu and price, the woman insisted for a 20% discount. Why? Because we were "the deli down the street" . No other reason. Although the food would be presented on silver platters, brass and chrome accented chafers, on our crisp white linens, and in her own home, we were still being penalized for being what we were. We were not allowed to be judged on our skills, food or service. This attitude comes up time and time again with new clients who balk at our prices, "Why, you're only slightly cheaper than X (a well established, reputable caterer), You're still small, right? How can you do this?

I think there is a certain population of customers that pull that cr2p on everyone they do business with and occasionally people will give in.

Personally I would have told them to go use X. Or better yet, ask if money is a problem that maybe some supermarket deli trays or maybe some Costco frozen appetizers and mini desserts might be they way to go? And they can do that themselves and save a ton of money!
Really. If you are going to let people walk on you and get away with it that creates a bad precedent for everyone. Now I am curious. Did you give her the discount? Inquiring minds wanna know!

[foodpump]

Nope. Stuck to our guns and told her that was the price. In this town there's only two kinds of caterers, the Costco kind, and the other kind, we're the other kind.

Look, here's a sticky situation for you, read how we handled it, and ask yourself how you would handle it:

From time to time we do small movie/TV series catering. Nothing big, hot lunches for 30-50. We were refered to from another production, set up a menu, contract etc. Contract was for 4 weeks, 35 lunches, 12$ a lunch, paid every week. First and second weeks go by and it's all smooth sailing, end of the third week the ***. producer comes to me with a plate with a fly in the mashed potatoes. Big letter from her saying she won't pay for that day, and if we don't take that loss, she won't pay for the whole week. Write her back and tell her the fly (this is January) did not come from my kitchen, it was found intact and unmolested, and was assumed to have originated in a 6" deep hotel pan full of mashed pototoes. If it had come from my kitchen it would have been pureed. Invited her to call the health dept. and lodge a complaint. Also made it clear that we were only responsible for food, not the cleanliness of her lunch room, which could be cleaner, and was full of empty beverage cans. Refuses to pay, says "we'll have to discuss this", but no time or appointment given. March into her office and get 10 minutes of her time. Told her again, we would comp her the mashed potatoes, but not 35 meals. She's screaming about courts and lawyers. Told her to calm down and that, 1) she didn't call the health dept, so I can't accept this as a genuine complaint, 2) she didn't have the said fly to show the health dept. if she wanted to complain now, two days later, AND 3) I have a letter from her saying that if we don't accept a $500 loss she won't pay the remaining $2000 and that, in anyone's opinion, is extortion. Oh, and by the way, if you want to go to court, it'll be small claims, and no lawyers are permitted. She says she'll try the court.

What did I do? Took the $500 loss but got her accountant to cut me a cheque for the remaing $2000 before I left the office. I could easily win in small claims, ****, the Judge could shake my hand, but I'd never get the court to make the client cough up, they're toothless.

Now, two months before that, we did a private Grey Cup party, Canada's version of the Superbowl. Big thing, 600 people, 6 food stations, 4 bars, 24 on-site staff. Compliments all around, pretty much smooth sailing, got paid immediatley. Good event, happy memories.
#$%^&! what a life, never a dull moment around here...