Need help from Chefs please!!!

[Jolly Roger]

What's up with "tobe" anyway? Yo!, Cheftobe...what's up wit' you dog? How's it goin' with your A-hole chef? Don't leave us hangin', bro.

[foodpump]

Now, now, he's not a Chef yet, but an apprentice, so lets just call him Tobe...

[Jolly Roger]

Right on, foodpump. Did you happen to see my brief rant in the late night non-food related forum? Cakerookie got her paties in a bunch because I adressed the whole calling oneself a chef when oneself is not really a chef deal.

[cakerookie]

Not a she. A he.................

[Jolly Roger]

Sorry 'bout that cakerookie. Man! Don't let me near any cocktail parties anytime soon. I'm liable to clear the room.

[Chef Kaiser]

Hi, when i started in the kitchen to work, as a professional apprentice in 1975 in Switzerland, under a Professional Chef, i also asked at times many questions what is right and what is not. So eventually i understood and accepted the heat of the kitchen first, the word of the Chef and his power and not what my school masters told us in that time. If a chef will ask you to peel and cut 200 kilograms of onions, then just do it. At least you know one skill very well already peeling and cutting onions in brunoise. that is the same with the cold kitchen, your complaint, well do it all over again. To be a chef means to master each individual skill perfectly like in the cold kitchen making terrines, pates etc.

regards

Originally Posted by cheftobe

Under my apprenticeship program I have to put so many hours in at different stations, I currently have enough hours at one of the stations and my chef refuses to move me to another. He comments that the school will never know what hours are spent at each station and that he will simply sign off that the hours were completed. I feel that this regresses the learning process and I told him this fact. He was upset that I questioned him. I will do whatever is necessary in the kitchen, any task, I will man any station. I also realize that I have to put my time in as an apprentice.I have zero problem doing the work!!!!
I also entered a chaud froid competition and told him that I wanted to go ahead and make 2 particular dishes, he told me that they would never win. He also stated that since I am working under him, that I would have to do what he suggests since I will be representing the restaurant. Again, I told him how I felt and again he was upset. The day before the event I stayed after work to finish my project, he decided to take over and pretty much did my project.... Not happy about that either, he slopped the dishes together, he would ask me what I wanted to do, I told him, then he went and did something totally different. I actually spent 3 hours before the comp. "cleaning" up the dishes. Luckily I ended up getting a Bronze.
I do not want to sound big headed, I am really down to earth with my thoughts. I have SO much to learn it is unreal, but I feel that he is impeding my learning process!! What can I do?

PS> There are 2 other apprentices and they all feel the same way in regards to the learning disability. We all really feel that we are spinning our wheels!!

[Chef Kaiser]

hi, i can just agree with you, that is the way, you become a chef and not just with the glamor of one of these schools out there today. Where you paid soo much many and want to have a return of investment asap.

Ha Ha the real world is different, real chefs do think different, as the basics are still to be respected and those you get only in choping onions first everyday as an apprentice.

regards and thank you for your position to this profession

Originally Posted by chefa1a

Apprentice-ship is a tough deal especially depending on your pay scale

my friend went to france said he was plucking chickens, scaling fish and peeling potatoes for free for a month before he got to "stag" on the line

work as long as you can at your place for a good reference and find something else

when your employers look at your work history they want to see your stable and stayed at a quality place for a while, so you have to make the decision.

If its bad where your working, maybe you want to cut your losses. That why you pick good places because you want to learn something as well

anyways best of luck its a dog eat dog kitchen out there

[panini]

Hey guys,
JR,FP. I absolutely understand the party atmosphere. A few of your last posts were way out a line. You might want to take the idle chit chat to the late night or PM, especially if it's going to get personal.
JR Your a Certified Chef, FP Man You have your own gig. You have to understand the MY House concept. Nothing unacceptible goes on in your Houses. Some of use who truly believe in ChefTalk get the same feeling.
Everyone here has created bonds, so when I read something like this

Right on, foodpump. Did you happen to see my brief rant in the late night non-food related forum? Cakerookie got her paties in a bunch because I adressed the whole calling oneself a chef when oneself is not really a chef deal.
I try to put myselves in their shoes. All I can say is I have their back, and I will speak out (just as I would do for you) and say NOT IN MY HOUSE.
I can't keep putting faith in the appologies,especially when the excuse is alcohol at 11 am.
Guys, there are soo many newbies, students, home enthusiists, etc. here.
They may not post in the professional forum or post at all, but they sure do read. I'm afraid this thread may have run someone off, who came here with good intensions.
Take this how you may. It's soft, I know. If you want to lash back, well bring it on!I do not believe in this at all, but If you ever have any doubts about my background or my skills. my education,my experience, I'd love to do battle off this board. JR, I finished what some would call a very sucessful career in the kitchens and began at the bottom of another career and fastracted up and achieved Exec, status with cridentials before the age of 35. I still don't know if I'm a chef? The title doesn't mean craaaap if your going to use it for strength.

[Jolly Roger]

I can dig it Panini, about the whole "title for strength" for comment. The hair on the back of my neck bristles up when I hear people throw it around like it's easy to do, or no one can check them on it. As I have stated before, I recognize your experience as well as many others and I too have no problem crossing blinds with anyone when it comes to things of culinary nature. We all have are strong points as well as weak points. And yes, admittedly, my comment about cakerookie was inappropriate. I don't expect a Christmas card from him this year. He seemed pretty T.O.'ed. Initially, I had placed my post in the "Late night non-food" related forum. I don't know when it got moved to "Chef Discussion" so that's not my fault about the placement. Just wanted to clear that up. Anywho, As I make my way across this eggshell covered floor, I bid ya'll ado for a while to let things settle.

[foodpump]

I'll take full responsibilities of my actions, or words, and I'll also stand up to what I've said. I have not insulted, made fun of, or made predictions of what Tobe's future will be. Nor have I sworn at him or called him or any of his family members names. I have, however, highlighted some of the excerpts of his postings and offered them up for musing/comments.

Pannini, you have correctly pointed out that "I have my own gig", which makes a "consumer" of the cooking school and apprentice "market". It is my option to take graduates and fit them into a working, profitable business. Would you take on an apprentice still in his first year who complains that s/he hasn't worked all of the stations yet? Complains that he is older than his Chef, and this somehow makes him eligable for a special or "streamlined" apprenticeship? If you bought a new car that needed replacement wrist pins within the first 3 mths, would you raise h*** with the mnfctr and ask them to address the problem, or would you fix the problem yourself and not mention it to anybody else?
I see the attitude of this young man and automaticaly determine I wouldn't want him in my kitchen with his current attitude, nor could I imagine him in anyone else's. So I address the problem. Yeah, my hoofprints are all over the place. I'll never take credit for being discreet... Maybe o'l Tobe'll take note, maybe he won't. But no one can accuse me for lack of trying. And I'm still waiting for Tobe's comments.....

Chef Kaiser, where did you apprentice? I did mine at Romantik Hotel Wilden Mann, Luzern, '85 -'88.

[panini]

Food Pump,
I stand corrected. You have not done anything. This morning was all about CR. I met him his first day here, he is overwhelmed but yet enthusiastic about learning culinary skills. We talk frequently, share tools and ingredients through the mail. He is responsible for getting me a second wind with sugar. His enthusiasm has led me to put in a sugar station at the shop and we have trained most of the staff the basics and the station has started turning a profit as last week. I know, long, but what I read this morning made me react.
That's all. It has nothing to do with this threads theme. I will tell ya I can't count the number of apprentices I've had over the years but I would bet that if I made assumptions quickly about them, I would not have hired 90 percent of them. My current star(I say this with all due respect, in case she is reading) She arrived 20 minutes late her first 10 mornings and lived 5 minutes away. She was soo green, she was blue. It took 3 months before I actually
said anything to her where she looked me in the eye. She just had her 4 yr anniversary and I would be proud to send her to a job requiring not only pastry skills but business skills also.
Sorry FP
pan

[foodpump]

No harm done, Pannini, We've just got different outlooks, that's all.

You're right about people changing, they do, and the results can be great. I remember one lady I had, was consistently late. No apologies or explanations, just grabbed her apron and started to work with a grim face. Turns out her husband had just got a new job and couldn't take the kids to school, that's why she was late. Scared to tell me because we had agreed on the hours two weeks previously. So I changed her hours for her, she stayed almost three years with us. On the other hand I had a waitress who was always consistently late, her bus was never on time. So I changed her shift to start a half hour later. Wouldn't you know it? THAT bus ran late too! I played that game with her for several weeks, moving up her starting time, but never her quitting time. By the time her shift was pared down to 4 hrs I figured she'd catch on, she didn't. I got the ol' 3 am-on-the-answer-machine blurb about not coming in to work tommorow.

I love teaching people things. I'll take flak at home, and suffer the ol' "hot tongue and cold shoulder" treatment from my wife when I stay late and show someone who wants to learn how to make those mini 50mm matchbook pate en croutes, or how to make 3d figures out of croquant. But the attitude has to be there.
Most people I've met won't or can't change their attitude until they know that it needs to be changed. I don't see this in Tobe's posts, All emphasis for Tobe's problems are placed directly on his Chef's shoulders. If I'm wrong, I'll accept that. Matter of fact I hope I'm wrong, both for Tobe's career and his Chef's sanity......

[cheftobe]

"Would you take on an apprentice still in his first year who complains that s/he hasn't worked all of the stations yet? Complains that he is older than his Chef, and this somehow makes him eligable for a special or "streamlined" apprenticeship? If you bought a new car that needed replacement wrist pins within the first 3 mths, would you raise h*** with the mnfctr and ask them to address the problem, or would you fix the problem yourself and not mention it to anybody else?
I see the attitude of this young man and automaticaly determine I wouldn't want him in my kitchen with his current attitude, nor could I imagine him in anyone else's. So I address the problem. Yeah, my hoofprints are all over the place. I'll never take credit for being discreet... Maybe o'l Tobe'll take note, maybe he won't. But no one can accuse me for lack of trying. And I'm still waiting for Tobe's comments..... "

Foodpump, you have taken my initial thread and have turned my simple question/scenario/advice seeking from proffesionals into something that is so far off base, so completely wrong, it is really mind boggling. Attitude? What attitude???? My schooling in conjuction with hands on experience in a house, are supposed to go hand and hand. If the right hand is not holding the left hand, then the circle is broken. Its a system of checks and balances per se. If my chefs tells me to "not worry about working the required amount of hours at a paticular station, they will never know, I will just sign off on it", you can honestly tell me, you think that is acceptable?? IT IS 100% UNACCEPTABLE IN MY BOOK!! If that means I have an "attitude" about me getting shoddy experience, half a** instruction, or simply spinning my wheels, well then so be it. No attitude was given here, zero, on my end at least.

Culinarian's Code: pledge my professional knowledge and skill to the advancement of our profession and to pass it on to those who are to follow.

#1 Code for the ACF, call me crazy but I do not see it happening here.
I am very passionate about food and furhter learning of the trade, actually passionate is an understatement, and yes that is another attitude I bring with me. So I was wrong, I do have an attitude... very positive, very, very focused, even through the garbage I have been tramping through so far, I still love it. Sorry I wouldn't "fit" in your house, I make a great addition to any team....

[foodpump]

Attitude? What attitude? The fact that you seem to mention that your Chef is younger than you in your posts on both sites; I think you said it was kind of funny. The fact that you're still in your first year and you want to learn everything, right now, even though your fellow apprentices haven't even gotten that far either? The fact that your Chef pays for all materials for your competitions and you feel you should have absolute control over everything? Yep, that's attitude.

I guess the biggest question I have is why you choose at age 35 to start an apprenticeship, and why you chose your particular establishment, including a Chef younger than you. Surely you spent some time mulling things over before you committed yourself to 3 years?

Anyhoo, no news from your new post. Didn't say if you talked with your Chef, or if you talked with the Apprentice's board. Didn't say much but let me know how you feel. Come back again with some news.

[Chef Kaiser]

Chef Kaiser, where did you apprentice? I did mine at Romantik Hotel Wilden Mann, Luzern, '85 -'88.[/quote]

I did my apprentice ship with the Moevenpick Group in Wuerenlos AG 1977 till 80. where do you work now.

regards kaiser

Originally Posted by foodpump

I'll take full responsibilities of my actions, or words, and I'll also stand up to what I've said. I have not insulted, made fun of, or made predictions of what Tobe's future will be. Nor have I sworn at him or called him or any of his family members names. I have, however, highlighted some of the excerpts of his postings and offered them up for musing/comments.

Pannini, you have correctly pointed out that "I have my own gig", which makes a "consumer" of the cooking school and apprentice "market". It is my option to take graduates and fit them into a working, profitable business. Would you take on an apprentice still in his first year who complains that s/he hasn't worked all of the stations yet? Complains that he is older than his Chef, and this somehow makes him eligable for a special or "streamlined" apprenticeship? If you bought a new car that needed replacement wrist pins within the first 3 mths, would you raise h*** with the mnfctr and ask them to address the problem, or would you fix the problem yourself and not mention it to anybody else?
I see the attitude of this young man and automaticaly determine I wouldn't want him in my kitchen with his current attitude, nor could I imagine him in anyone else's. So I address the problem. Yeah, my hoofprints are all over the place. I'll never take credit for being discreet... Maybe o'l Tobe'll take note, maybe he won't. But no one can accuse me for lack of trying. And I'm still waiting for Tobe's comments.....

Chef Kaiser, where did you apprentice? I did mine at Romantik Hotel Wilden Mann, Luzern, '85 -'88.