[Chef Kaiser]

Hi to all,

it always happens to me, when young chefs come with some recipe ideas form the internet, that chefs mention the word small cubes, medium cubes, large cubes, finely chopped, chopped and etc.

For myself this are very unspecific terminologies. Why is it, that in the US chefs dont use the traditional vegetable and potato cut terminologies, which are used by most European chefs, we can say for centuries?

Vegetable cut terminologies:
Bruinoise
Jardiniere
Macedoine
Mirepoix
Matignon
Paysanne
Carrot Vichy
Batonettes
Turned vegetables
Chiffonade
Julienne
etc.

just wondering, as this cut names are expressing, cubes of different sizes, strips etc.

well just wondering.

regards

[chrose]

Originally Posted by Chef Kaiser

Why is it, that in the US chefs dont use the traditional vegetable and potato cut terminologies, which are used by most European chefs, we can say for centuries?


regards

Seems like kind of a generalization there Chef. Perhaps it has to do with the people you work with. If you have a kitchen full of "un-schooled" cooks, then perhaps descriptive words as opposed to correct terminology gets the point across better. If you know what a brunoise is, and the person you are trying to tell to make it knows what it is, then bang...no problems. But by the same token I am quite sure you can find an equal number of Europeans that will use big dice, small dice etc. in a professional setting. It would be nice if we all spoke the same language, but it likely won't happen. When I ran my kitchens and I wanted a Batonette or a lardon, etc. I said so. If the person I was telling didn't know then I would teach them. But to make a generalization that is wrong.

[Chef Kaiser]

Originally Posted by chrose

Seems like kind of a generalization there Chef. Perhaps it has to do with the people you work with. If you have a kitchen full of "un-schooled" cooks, then perhaps descriptive words as opposed to correct terminology gets the point across better. If you know what a brunoise is, and the person you are trying to tell to make it knows what it is, then bang...no problems. But by the same token I am quite sure you can find an equal number of Europeans that will use big dice, small dice etc. in a professional setting. It would be nice if we all spoke the same language, but it likely won't happen. When I ran my kitchens and I wanted a Batonette or a lardon, etc. I said so. If the person I was telling didn't know then I would teach them. But to make a generalization that is wrong.

Chrose,

you just hit the nail on the head. however it is for a more efficient communication actually and not to talk to untrained people. I say the word, i get what i want, well Chef Escoffier probably also used them. You call for a cube you can get anything, i call for brunoise I get a cube of 1mm x 1mm x 1mm. Well this cuts are all about efficient communication and understanding in a professional kitchen setting. as i do not want to give every new chef instructions about the basic cuts. Also would i say that most European Chef are using this language as all professional culinary schools are teaching them as we believe in them to be very effective in the kitchen and understanding of recipes.

regards

[Pete]

In all my training, some of it under french chefs, I was taught that a brunoise was 1/8 x 1/8 x 1/8 of an inch, which translates into approx. 3mm x 3 mm x 3 mm, not 1 x 1 x 1. While I agree that terms like large dice, medium dice, etc. can be vague, I don't know that we need to rely and the french for all of our terminology, all of the time. Sure brunoise, julienne, etc. are great terms, that I use often, but so is 1/4 inch dice, 1/2 inch dice.

[Chef Kaiser]

Originally Posted by Pete

In all my training, some of it under french chefs, I was taught that a brunoise was 1/8 x 1/8 x 1/8 of an inch, which translates into approx. 3mm x 3 mm x 3 mm, not 1 x 1 x 1. While I agree that terms like large dice, medium dice, etc. can be vague, I don't know that we need to rely and the french for all of our terminology, all of the time. Sure brunoise, julienne, etc. are great terms, that I use often, but so is 1/4 inch dice, 1/2 inch dice.

Pete,

there is obviously some variation in size, brunoise can range from 1 mm cube to a larger once, however the next size is Jardiniere which is 0.5cm X 0.5 cm x 0.5 cm and also up wards thereafter you have the macedoine aprox 1 cm cube etc. Well the way you say it, it makes sense, if expressing a measurement / cube, but many dont do that and that leaves therefore many to guess the size as it is not specific.

regards

[even stephen]

Sadly it seems brunoise is the only cut anyone knows these
days. Often I will ask for a julienne, baton, paysanne, macedoine,
or chiffonade, and, get a blank stare in return. I to agree that
knife skills have fallen by the wayside. I think you will find that
many young cooks today are also in the dark in regards to
many mainstream classic sauces. Call me conservative, but,
some things are the way they are for a reason. When I ask
for something I expect to get it. More often than not, its not
that I want what I think something should be, but, what some
thing has to be. The lack of discipline and definition in kitchens
really bothers me these days, but, thats why I speak with each
new employee and give them, in written form, the basics(cuts, mother
sauces, proper uniform, etiquette,etc). In the end I am the one
charged with the responsibility of educating the kitchen staff. It
takes a little time, but, in the end it saves nine. By the way,
I have really enjoyed the posts by Chef Kaiser. Truly well rounded
gracious, and non jugemental. A true professional, I think, a lifer
probably.

Stephen

[Chef Kaiser]

Originally Posted by even stephen

Sadly it seems brunoise is the only cut anyone knows these
days. Often I will ask for a julienne, baton, paysanne, macedoine,
or chiffonade, and, get a blank stare in return. I to agree that
knife skills have fallen by the wayside. I think you will find that
many young cooks today are also in the dark in regards to
many mainstream classic sauces. Call me conservative, but,
some things are the way they are for a reason. When I ask
for something I expect to get it. More often than not, its not
that I want what I think something should be, but, what some
thing has to be. The lack of discipline and definition in kitchens
really bothers me these days, but, thats why I speak with each
new employee and give them, in written form, the basics(cuts, mother
sauces, proper uniform, etiquette,etc). In the end I am the one
charged with the responsibility of educating the kitchen staff. It
takes a little time, but, in the end it saves nine. By the way,
I have really enjoyed the posts by Chef Kaiser. Truly well rounded
gracious, and non jugemental. A true professional, I think, a lifer
probably.

Stephen

Dear Stephen,

Yes in fact, you can classify me like an old broken record even though I am only 44. The greatest problems in our business we face today are media, food critics and show biz chefs. Well - as well as - teachers who dropped out of the kitchen, because or maybe it got too hot for them and after 3 - 5 years they believe now I can teach. Well there the answer to the new generation of cooks (chef so called today after graduation) and the reason why “You Stephen” have to teach basics to them again, but that is the only way.

For myself I grew up with a true world champion - National Team Leader of the Swiss Culinary Team in the 70th - Teacher in an apprenticeship school 1 day a week and Chef of 8 restaurant with 180'000 covers a month. Well there I learned to be a humble cook with such a master and himself, often bored with office work, he came and peeled the 300KG of onions (daily) with us apprentices and always had time for a joke or some review while peeling onions. We ended up in the third year still helping to peel the onions and not having had pride to be the senior.

What he actually tells me with his 75 years of age still today - is simple - Just ignore what you feel is wrong and do as a Chef what you have to do. Some may say you are old fashioned but trust always the basic culinary methods, as even I had to learn them and understand them today.

I never worked in the US, but I most probably would have a hard time to work there, as I traveled there for many times in business or just for other reasons. As a European and from the business I can see and feel the motivation of staff, it is mostly money oriented.

Also I work with some Americans here abroad in the past 20 plus years and I hope nobody kills me of what I am saying now. But they walk in an operation here 14 outlets and said easy, well mostly they had to leave, as we don’t cook with convenience food products here and we have fare inferior ingredients quality here. That is the first thing they complaint about, but making the best out of it with the basics you can.

As I learned I do, we as Chefs are Ambassadors of food and health; we do have a direct influence of the well being of the customer and the respect to their religion and believes.

Therefore chefs and even cooks and educators of today should not say the past is past, well I do believe the past gives energy to me and the knowledge given from generation to generation should be treasured.

Well that spark I tried to give with the translation of Careme and Escoffier, but I do trust some out there will understand me and understand what it means to be a cook and not a chef.

Stephen, thank you and let’s keep in touch.

Regards

Hans

And I always apologize for my English, but my consommé is clear and happy

[panini]

44? cripes. I was thinking 67-68 I'm going out on a limg and judging your professional education to equate like an upbringing in a Catholic enviornment.
This is just me now, having already been cooking when Chef Kaiser was born. I would take the word generalization (used by Chrose) and change it to
generational. Like golf, a caddie now a days would not know which club I was calling for if I were to ask for a mashie, nibbkick, etc.
This is before my eyes are open, so please, no one take offence. I cannot talk without my hands for the first few hours of the day.
Gosh, sorry, that did not make any sense.

[Chef Kaiser]

Originally Posted by panini

44? cripes. I was thinking 67-68 I'm going out on a limg and judging your professional education to equate like an upbringing in a Catholic enviornment.
This is just me now, having already been cooking when Chef Kaiser was born. I would take the word generalization (used by Chrose) and change it to
generational. Like golf, a caddie now a days would not know which club I was calling for if I were to ask for a mashie, nibbkick, etc.
This is before my eyes are open, so please, no one take offence. I cannot talk without my hands for the first few hours of the day.
Gosh, sorry, that did not make any sense.

Panini,

did you get up on the wrong foot this moring, basic are basic and you can be 80 and tell me an other story.

flour with its glutenin and gliadin + water = gluten

If you Add egg to it and sugar in different proportions

= your sponge cake will be different

well that is all what i am taking about.

Panini you can be 90 and i will tell you even the effect of the sugar, fat and etc. in dough

this are humble basics!

and schools should be teaching that and not establishments!

that is all what i mean.

Nothing about age please it is all about respect to the knowledge in our profession and its basics!

regards

[panini]

No Chef,
very happy this morning. Absolutely not being negetive. I just think as we pass the baton to the younger generation of chefs, terminology changes. For instance, I was just offered a pretty good chunck of money to stand in for a friend and teach his laminating course for three weeks. I was pretty sure I knew what laminating refered to, but I responded in a 'no thanks' way for I was not 100% sure. I have never used this label coming up. Chef, my post was with respect for you, nothing else. Our family is proud to be Catholic. I'm refering to the old way of education. My 15 yr old is attending a Cistercian Preparatory school which some would consider a little old fashioned. I regard it as pretty modern, when compared to the Catholic high school I attended.
Make any sense yet? sorry
pan

[Chef Kaiser]

Dear Panini,

i personally dont talk about church and God, when i cook and do, that is your family. For me i do believe in God very much and there is anyway only One the way i can see since i traveled the world. Therefore lets use the inspiration of God the only One, but working with a Muslim beside you and etc. Chefs have no specific church, all churches are ours and they are all our friends, as we respect them and they respect us. If you think humble that is what it is all about. i call it the world church and we as chefs can do it.

regards

[panini]

Well,
I have done it again. Not rereading my reply before posting.
Chef Kaiser, I have nothing but respect for you. That last post sounded like a slam, but it was not intended to be read like that. My crack about the age was in reference to how much knowledge and experience you have at a young age. The Catholic remark was refering to the older more classical ways of a catholic education. It's kinda like a classical education in food.
I appologise if that post sounded offensive. It was typed by an idiot who is not recovered from a busy day yesterday. I could not string two thoughts together this morning. I have no business posting. I'm gonna take a break and head out to Church. I'll pop on later this afternoon to assess the damage I've done.
pan

[panini]

After some thought,
It has come to the point where I'm not enjoying participating any more. I'm going to take a break. It seems all I do is appologise for my thoughts.

[Chef Kaiser]

Originally Posted by panini

Well,
I have done it again. Not rereading my reply before posting.
Chef Kaiser, I have nothing but respect for you. That last post sounded like a slam, but it was not intended to be read like that. My crack about the age was in reference to how much knowledge and experience you have at a young age. The Catholic remark was refering to the older more classical ways of a catholic education. It's kinda like a classical education in food.
I appologise if that post sounded offensive. It was typed by an idiot who is not recovered from a busy day yesterday. I could not string two thoughts together this morning. I have no business posting. I'm gonna take a break and head out to Church. I'll pop on later this afternoon to assess the damage I've done.
pan

Dear Panini,

No problem with me, I am not like that. However to be honest what I believe I make sure I go straight back to the point.

As I do believe there should be no boarders among Chefs. That is what Chef Careme and Chef Esfoffier proofed to us, as they traveled the world. That is also the reason why I do bring up here in my posts of the old culinary language of the vegetable cuts and my next post it will be the potato cuts (well there was a student asking for it and one of you just well).

As for me a universal chefs language, a universal chefs book of the basics would humbly be a dream.

Well a Dream - as Ego of school owners and mediocre teachers just try to developed a new way with a new language.

Why not using what our forefather gave us, and on these principals do it better in education with our better technology of equipment of today and etc. of today.

The true problem today are the many schools with truly mediocre teachers, who never heard of the culinary history or know maybe about it and are affright to pronounce the French word like brunoise!

Well the true fact is, that the American Government never standardized culinary education programs, what happened way back in Europe in some countries because of Escoffier and his book "Le Guide Culinaire."

Well all disagree with me now and make me look like the black sheep, but truly think first, and think of the world history of chefs.


regards

[panini]

I got to tell ya. Statements like this scare me a little, truly