Organic....shmorganic...

[cheflusch]

Ah yes...1:30 am, no sleep..why not complain..lol

I'm having some issues with the organic revolution. Don't get me wrong, I am all for fazing out the use of man made chemicals that are treating the foods that are passing through my body. If farmers can grow the same product using 1000s of ladybugs to eat the worms destroying their crops instead of 2000's version of ddt (or whatever they're doing...you get my point here) then godspeed, power to the people. BUT.....

The latest thread I passed through was "making tomato sauce" under food discussion(along with several others before it)...Unless I missed a couple articles in Science Digest, Organic farming is NOT changing the flavor of our produce. Mass produced farming focusing of production and not quality changes flavor. The weather,climate,etc. for the growing season changes the flavor. For the tomato thread..buying an heirloom Ugly Ripe tomato over a "vine-ripened" tomato at the supermarket changes flavor. Buying two identical tomatoes, one treated with chemicals to keep the buggies away and one using all natural, chemical free, organic farming isn't going to change the flavor of a tomato. I just wish all those in the world who jump on the bandwagon of progress, actually know why they're jumping on it and not just because the others on it told them to.
Does anyone else agree with this or have any other points to argue this...love to hear them.
ohhh...one more thing. Organic fresh produce(fruits and veggies)....all for it. Organic corn flakes cereal?????????? I'm no farmer, but....we are talking about a grain of wheat, with its husk removed,milled,combined with 10 other ingredients,shaped,toasted, and packaged in a plastic bag.......Aren't we?

[cheflusch]

Organic corn flakes cereal?????????? I'm no farmer, but....we are talking about a grain of wheat, with its husk removed,milled,combined with 10 other ingredients,shaped,toasted, and packaged in a plastic bag.......Aren't we?[/quote]


Did I mean Organic Wheaties? Yup..up for work in 3 hours...I surrender. off to s.l..e.....e......p...................

[mudbug]

Originally Posted by cheflusch

...Organic farming is NOT changing the flavor of our produce. Mass produced farming focusing of production and not quality changes flavor.

Correct. Organic farming is maintaining the original integrity of the flavor the way nature intended.

Originally Posted by cheflusch

...The weather,climate,etc. for the growing season changes the flavor.

Yes. But not nearly as much as industrialized farming practices.

Originally Posted by cheflusch

... buying an heirloom Ugly Ripe tomato over a "vine-ripened" tomato at the supermarket changes flavor

Depends. You can purchased all sorts of vine ripened tomatoes whether they are organic, heirloom, or non-organic or non-heirloom or any combination of them. If the vine ripened tomato is an heirloom - which to me is beautiful as opposed to "ugly", then the vine ripened heirloom will taste better than the identical variety that was not vine ripened.

Originally Posted by cheflusch

... Buying two identical tomatoes, one treated with chemicals to keep the buggies away and one using all natural, chemical free, organic farming isn't going to change the flavor of a tomato.

Not sure about your wording here. Purchasing either tomato will not change the flavor of either and the differences are not as simple as you think.

Have you ever seen a tomato plant in home garden? Have you ever eaten a tomato picked at the peak of ripeness on a warm summer day and eaten it?

If yes, then you know that tomato plants do not produce tomatoes that are all the same size, same shape, same uniform color, they do not all become ripe on the same day, etc. Have you ever picked up a perfectly round red tomato that was so hard you could use it to hammer a nail into the wall? Can you do this with a ripe home grown tomato? Everything that goes into industrialized farming is gearing that plant for mechanized planting, maintenance, and harvest. It's not just about chemicals. It's about breeding, hybridizing, gassing, genetic modification, fertilizing, treating and/or breeding for diseases, treating and/or breeding for pest resistance, treating and/or breeding for time involved in processing, transportation and shelf life. It's about what is in the soil that has had the organic matter long since depleted and replaced by synthetic nutrients. What happens when major steps are taken to alter nature's system for forced mass production? You know how a tiny little dose of medicine can affect your own body for a day. Imagine your whole life - the life of the plant. What is lost? Flavor.

[Blade55440]

I saw organic table sugar once... I nearly fell into an epileptic fit trying to wrap my brain around that one.

[cheflusch]

Originally Posted by mudbug

It's about what is in the soil that has had the organic matter long since depleted and replaced by synthetic nutrients. What happens when major steps are taken to alter nature's system for forced mass production? You know how a tiny little dose of medicine can affect your own body for a day. Imagine your whole life - the life of the plant. What is lost? Flavor.

ahh...excellent point.
Growing up in rural NJ, we had a tomato garden every year. And I think tomato(maybe watermelon)is the best example of how the amount of "junk" in the soil will affect the overall flavor of the product, with the amount of water in tomatoes and watermelon. But...how about a head of cabbage? Is there really going to be a noticeable difference in flavor? I'm a hands on type of person. I need two plants side by side. One grown in chemical treated soil all season(or several seasons), one grown in nature's own chemical free soil(loaded with cow turds..that is the most common way to fertilize organic fields..isn't it? Hence our ecoli spinach outbreak this year?) and taste the difference betwenn the crops.

Which all brings up one last discussion point....Hydroponic plants with no soil.Hmmm...how much flavor loss is there with this one?

[chefboy2160]

Good early morning rant . Organic seems to be a buzz word for the marketing gurus to target the earth friendly, its seen in all aspects of marketing.

Our planet has been so corrupted and polluted by a species known as the human being that evidence of this pollution can be found in the ice at both polar caps. Organic, natural, free range, and all these other buzz words sound quite nice and it would be wonderful if we could all live that way but,
our population is over 6 billion for the planet and this is realy not feasible to accomplish . Even in our own country the all natural fads are unrealistic in just the sheer ammount of labor needed to grow organicaly and raise free range versus the mass production methods which have been developed to meet the demands of an ever increasing population.
The need for those who can afford to feel superior to there fellow human can be found in these markets which specialize in these products but, for the average person raising a family there realy is no other option but the chain super market unless you are lucky enough to have a little spot of dirt to grow some fresh produce. I also like my Tomatoes fresh from the vine but good canned ones will do in a pinch.
Peace out, Doug.....

[Blueicus]

The simple act of domesticating plants and animals has already had an impact on the life on Earth for the past ten thousand years... all domesticated versions of the fruits, vegetables and meats we hold dear have already been drastically altered by human beings before we ever developed chemical pesticides and radiation treatments.

However, as much as I would prefer to keep things "natural", I must say that there is a place in the world for synthetics, used RESPONSIBLY, SAFELY and in RESTRAINT... which unfortunately isn't happening.

[Beanie]

our population is over 6 billion for the planet and this is realy not feasible to accomplish . Even in our own country the all natural fads are unrealistic in just the sheer ammount of labor needed to grow organicaly and raise free range versus the mass production methods which have been developed to meet the demands of an ever increasing population.
The need for those who can afford to feel superior to there fellow human can be found in these markets which specialize in these products but, for the average person raising a family there realy is no other option but the chain super market unless you are lucky enough to have a little spot of dirt to grow some fresh produce. I also like my Tomatoes fresh from the vine but good canned ones will do in a pinch.

If more people were educated in the basis of farming and the ethos of community - real community, where people really considered and helped other people out for the benefit of all - was reinstituted, what you propose would be feasible and on a grand scale. At present, there are many groups of people around the world who are doing exactly that but are thwarted by a commercially oriented, lazy society who simply don't understand the fundamental differences between canned and fresh food never mind recognise what a real apple looks like.

And sections of the organic mob don't help either. Organic certification is an absolute joke - it's not strict and there are way too many back doors through which the "almost organic" products can slip through - as is the current disagreement currently occurring between the varying certification bodies. In addition, the public are regularly and deliberately duped into what has become a very slick and dirty marketing campaign with elements of the farming community more focussed on developing their own private empires as opposed to creating what could be a formidable and secure healthy food source.

Factory farming and vast monocultures are not the way to go - we are seeing the effects of this and Blind Freddy could tell it just isn't working. The biggest threat at present is the development of genetically engineered foods and worse, not many are blinking an eye as tonnes of patented slough and barren seeds flood the market. If this continues, the simple and beautiful act of being able to grow a plant will no longer be afforded to us in our lifetimes.

If anything, I would say to you: stop concentrating on the icecaps, oil refineries and blindly following the beliefs that wind farms and hydroelectric plants are the way to go. Grassroots needs you. Work up to the bigger picture from there. Get out there and find out what it is you want from the world in the future and what it is you can do to give back. Markets are defined by consumer needs - the more you know, the more you are able to influence just what is sold under the "organic" label.

Other than that:

Save seeds.
Put your kitchen scraps in your own worm farm.
Use a rainwater tank.
Be smart about water use.
Go out of your way and find a farmer's market.
Ask them how they grow their food.
Securing the world's food is a monumental task but it's not something that is done in a day. It starts with each of us doing our bit.

[rat]

Originally Posted by cheflusch

Hence our ecoli spinach outbreak this year?)

The e-coli is caused because the farms in question are permitted to use treated sewage water for irrigation purposes, a very common practice in California, the water used on the spinach in question was not completely treated. Something that hushed up when it occurred.

You are what you eat, your veggies are what they eat too. I would rather be chemical free.

[Txacoli]

From Rat: "The e-coli is caused because the farms in question are permitted to use treated sewage water for irrigation purposes, a very common practice in California, the water used on the spinach in question was not completely treated. Something that hushed up when it occurred."

Sorry, guy...you could not possibly be more wrong. Non potable water can't be used anywhere near harvest dates....and they get a crop every 90 days in the Salinas Valley. The non-potable water goes for golf courses and such. Wash your hands after that round, Tiger......

We are a few thousand miles closer to the issue....about 10, in fact. The grower responsible uses the same agricultural crew our grape growing people use. This is what happened:

The spinach is cut with a device like a giant bandsaw. In order to be cut, the spinach has to be fluffed up so that it can stand up to the blade. They do this by spraying the field with potable water, just ahead of blade.

The crew working the field in question that morning ran out of potable water. Rather than do the right thing and return back to the central jobsite and refill with clean water, they used non-potable water from a nearby cattle feedlot. With completely predictable results.

These crews hire out at between $8 and $10 per hour to the grower. The labor contractor takes out his costs and profits from that.....god knows what the worker gets. None of them are legal.

How ironic that an organic grower gets screwed over by a revolting, old-school utterly non-organic cattle feedlot outfit. Still, I can't help but think that if the spinach grower had real workers, paid a real wage.....maybe with some education or some minimal investment in the community they were working in.....this would not have happened.

You pay peanuts.....you get monkeys.

We buy strictly organic, especially tomatoes and fruit because it tastes better. Every time. And it keeps better. Do you have to put your sliced apples in acidulated water to keep from browning? I don't. We could serve our heirloom tomato caprese on papier maché and people would still freak out.

Keep buying the conventional stuff, guys.....you are welcome to the customers who can't tell the difference.