Chef or Rocket Scientist

[tcapper]

Hi

To answer the question, the meat is removed at 47 deg (37 is blood temp)

so there is not enough heat to generate steam, you also turn regularly to stabalise the juices. The meat is rare when served but not rare as you would know it. Try it, this is obviously for beef by the way guys.

Apologies for going native but each section in a kitchen is skilled in its own way and should be treated as such.

www.chefsworld.net

[AprilB]

but my response was generally directed towards Mike's post.

I know that every aspect of cooking is different, and it's our love of doing it that keeps us going.

When you 'refer' to the types of establishments I've worked at? Weyell, yes, I've worked at 4 star Resorts and failed to see the point of stuffing a quail with sauteed Rocky Mountain Oyster, tongue and scallops dressing smothered with tripe gravy kind of "genius" creations. (I'm not kidding)

However, I maintain a piece of meat is just that. Doesn't matter if you diaper it, pat it's little meaty butt with talc every night and read bedtime stories to it, it still is a piece of meat. There is nothing etherial about a slab of bovine muscle other than what you make of it.

Heck, I do variations of what you've described (minus the foil...I agree about the crust and don't like the steamed effect) for family dinner regularly.

I don't see how taking a ribeye with tongs and <ok> GENTLY placing it under a salamander or on a grill is that tough? I guess the important part would be not to forget it?

Thought guys were pretty much born with those skills... (except my uncle, he'd burn everything)

April

Originally Posted by tcapper

Sorry April, I do take exception to your comments.

In my previous post I stated the fact that an exec and pastry are two specialised sections. What I dont think is fair is "how hard is it to slap a piece of meat on a grill or under the salamander".

Obviously with a comment like this I can tell a great deal about the standard of establishment that you have worked in. "a piece of meat" in my kitchen is treated with the respect it deserves, "a piece of meat" is sourced carefully with a minimum of five week hanging, " a piece of meat" is seasoned carefully and seared in a cast iron pan, when the right colour is achieved it is basted with butter quickly then removed and placed in the oven till a temp of 47deg is reached, it is then removed and covered with foil and rested for 10 - 20 min.

This is not a "piece of meat"

www.chefsworld.net

[winston]

If the restaurant / hotel, specializes in breads, baked goods or it is one their USP then why not? surely they can advertise for who they want?

[felixe the dog]

Originally Posted by winston

If the restaurant / hotel, specializes in breads, baked goods or it is one their USP then why not? surely they can advertise for who they want?

Winston what is a USP?

Secondly, while your statement is correct, at no time has Tanasy said it was a specific hotel or restaurant, his post was directed towards what he/she sees as an emerging trend in the industry.

and finally, if a restaurant/hotel specializes in breads, baked goods then it is logical to recruit an Executive Pastry Chef who specialises in this area, not an Executive Chef with some baking experience. However this is indicative of the lack of qualified managers and long term vision within the industry. (bloody bean counters!! )

This supports my previous post - be careful who you work for.

[winston]

"Unique Selling Point"

[even stephen]

April,
I respect your chosen trade and don't doubt your perception
of what you do compared to a chef, sous, or cook. My question
is, is it really just a piece of meat? Would you cook a piece of
choice flank steak the same as you would cook a piece of Kobe
or american Wagyu flank steak if they were identical in size?
Do you think after cleaning a tenderloin and removing the tail
and head that all the filet mignon cut will cook at the same rate. Can you
tell which filet was cut from the top portion of the beef filet and
which was cut from the tail end of the filet. Do they cook at the
same rate? Is there difference in grain or density? Is there a difference
in say beef from Argentina and beef from the united states? Is it
the particular breed that makes a difference? Lots of different questions
to answer. If you were to make a salsa verde cruda, would you add
any acid? Was salsa verde created because of the lack of citrus in certain
areas and because it has a naturally sour taste? Would you know that
raw tomato or tomatillo based sauces will separate if you add lemon or
lime? Would you know why? If you were to make a free form shitake mushroom and cucumber terrine would you know how much gelatin to use
with out it being apparent that there is gelatin being used. Would you
Know how salt, oil, or port might effect the gelatin? Would you know how
to prepare fish whole, present it, then break it down in the kitchen and
serve it in an appropriate and attractive manner. Would you know the
different bone structures of fish to be prepared whole. Would you know
which fish are easier to prepare in this manner? Branzino, Snapper, Dourade,
Hog Snapper, Mangrove Snapper. Would you know which fish to choose on
a busy night. How easy would a plate up for say 400 pp be for you to orchestrate if it was a 6 or 7 course meal? To say a piece of meat is just
a piece of meat is the same as saying a cake is a cake. To me a burger
demands the same respect as a piece of foie gras. To me a chocolate
chip cookie demands the same respect as a five flavored chocolate covered
gold leaf adorned "bombe". To make small the more simple basic things we
may do in our trade, is a pretty deadly mistake. Thats how much of the real
art in the culinary trade has been lost. There is know shame in the smallest
most simple of tasks. Washing a pot at a homeless shelter or feeding the
President. Its about knowing your trade, being humble, and teaching others.
I hate to preach, but, an attitude of superiority, which is all I could gather from your posts, would not have much of a place in my kitchen. I don't mean
it as a personal shot at you, its just how I percieved the post. I hope you
are taking a chance to see what everyone else is doing where you work, and
not dwelling on what you have to do, or what others are not doing. Its all in
a days work, ya know?

[Suzanne]

And here I thought you were talking about me and my husband: I'm trained as a chef, and he as a rocket scientist (MIT).

My two cents: I don't think it's fair to make a blanket statement that all the ads Tanasy refers to are for places looking to cut out the pastry chef job. The only way to know is to answer all of them and go through an interview. To assume the worst is to do a disservice to all (and those who know me know I am not always friendly to management so it's hard for me to say that). And clearly, it raises a lot of hackles to no good end. Please, let's not make this a p***ing match about which side needs/has more skills.

Thinking about high-end menus, many dishes incorporate elements from the pastry side -- sorbets and even ice creams in apps, crisps and crackers, flans and custards -- so it makes sense that the hot side needs to know the principles. And we all agree that an executive chef need to know everything, period. If I were looking for an exec position, I wouldn't even consider applying unless I had a grasp of both sides, and HVAC, and accounting, and all the other non-cooking skills one needs to be a good manager.

[cookingwithfat]

Suzanne, I don't think this is turning into a pissing contest, but more a very level headed attempt on Stephen's part to explain to April a position that I think we all hold, however I think he is being far too kind.

The fact of the matter is, this thread got off track when Mike disregarded the talents of pastry chefs by ignorantly suggesting that he is one. In his few 22 years he has not had the experience to even begin to call himself a chef of any kind and April felt the need to defend her craft. Frankly, I think Mike was in need of the lambasting that April dished out, however I find it quite ironic that she chose to do so with the exact same disregard that she was defending.

To be clear April, in attempting to correct Mike you have made yourself appear just as ignorant. You have repeatedly disrespected our craft while insulting and ignoring the numerous people who have very respectfully "lifted their touques" to pastry chefs. Indeed, my initial response was to say that pastry is a very specialized craft and that an executive chef should respect and understand the many talents of the people who work in the kitchen. You have responded to this thread by repeatedly belittling what it is that we all love and care for which is food. I will go further than Stephen when he says that a burger demands as much respect as foie gras - and don't go all Charlie Trotter on me because clearly you have no respect for any kind of meat period - and that a "chocolate chip cookie demands the same respect as a five flavored chocolate covered gold leaf adorned 'bombe'" and say that a chocolate chip cookie demands the same respect as foie gras. What we are talking about her is food and - please correct me if I am wrong - but we are all in the business of caring deeply about food. Stephen and all the others who have been so kind and supportive through this tread have not been firm enough with you and Mike - and you have, in my opinion put yourself firmly in his camp - at the end of the day, regardless of the amount of experience you have, what matters is a desire to learn more each and every day, and to always ... ALWAYS .. care about food. To care about the pleasure that people gain from eating... to wake and fall asleep with the understanding that what we do brings joy and pleasure. If you truly think that baking is any different than cooking a steak - or any thing else for that matter - you are as sadly mistaken as a misguided 22 year old.

[cape chef]

As an executive chef of over 20 years, and now a educator in culinary arts,I would say to Pan's question to us(educators), that it is about integration of pastry arts to all students whether there main course of study is pastry or savory.

A cook is much better off to have a solid base education/experience in pastry, this will give the individual a heads up while competing for a position.

The techniques that drive a kitchen are very diverse, and all must be practiced and honed to be a success. I'm fortunate enough to be a fairly competent person in pastry, only because I have always respected this craft/science and wanted to learn to better round out my experience.

I also know when to step back and let the truly trained pastry folks do there thing, it is a marvel and requires a different set of skills (not necessarily better, but different)

I have found many student initially intimidated by pastry, then when taught, find themselves totally consumed and move into that end of our industry.

It's fine to discuss the differences in our trade,it's a function of any industry.

One comment I would like to make, I know with my education, and my experience at 22 years old (and they were good) I would feel uncomfortable calling myself any kind of chef.I graduated culinary in 1980, it wasn't until 1992 I was ready for my first executive chef position.

[even stephen]

Kudos Cape,
I know that when I was 22 I loved cooking and I loved women.
If I were asked now whether I did either with any skill, patience,
or true understanding, I would have to say "no"! It astounds me
how, year in and year out, I continue to grow, in everything I do.
I'm not, and never will be again, what I was when I was 22. But, I haven't
forgotten. Take it easy Cape.

[chefa1a]

i think what your seeing in ads is ability for a chef to do a small dessert list

because making money from flour and sugar makes $$ and good sense

and what owner or gm doesnt want that for the bottom line??

i look at the amount of dessert sales we do and have a housemade list

if we do enough revenue you can start working a pastry chef in a few days to
supplement your list do extra garnishes and so forth

[oldschool1982]

Wow! How to contribute to this thread? So many points of view that I not only hold close to the heart but also wear on my sleeve. (yes that is something I have spent a life time working on too). It's also difficult to not repeat or rehash many of the points already made. I guess I could just offer a perspective from the "chair" so to speak.

Most of us started in this business before the big boom of things in the 80's. In fact it was the thought of that "boom" that made it an opportunity to begin with. The numbers were staggering and all for the taking. All those "fern bars" and other "trendy" concepts were just in their infancy or hadn't been comercially exploited to the point of "Ba$tardization" yet.

Operations like a TGI Fridays used to go after culinary students (that's how I eneded up there) and basically "swoop you off your feet" with talk of opportunity. The menu and operation reflected every Culinary function. We had hot prep, cold prep, baker prep, Meat, Cheese and Seafood prep, line prep, Stewards, AKM's, KM's, Regional KM's, Divisional KM's. The kitchens were designed on the 1/3rd 2/3rds concept. Being that 1/3rd of the building square footage was kitchen and related storage and the remaining 2/3rds was delegated to the guest and servicing the needs of that guest. Everything was done in-house and I do mean EVERYTHING.

Sadly though most of us have seen the trend move from a fully staffed "Batallion style" operation's to skeleton crews in a matter of a couple decades. Not only that but less space has been delegated to the kitchen in providing adequate and well equiped facilities to produce the designed menu.

I've strayed abit away from what I intended to say so I'll get back to things. Wearing of multiple hats in the kitchen.

Yeah the bean counters have taken a bad rap for this one and I would like to say that it's all there fault but it's not. It's the Divisional, regional or whatevre new level of "al" has been created. These folks see dollar signs when they get promoted. They're paid ludicrious sums of money and then a bonus to boot to do nothing more than drive an operation, concept or corporation into the ground. They don't want the skilled, responsible, professional to be working for them because that then have to pay $$$$$$ for that person. So it's the store Mgmt that takes the hit.

I used to consider it a challenge to try and do it all. My competetive spirit would sometimes write checks that I couldn't cover. Cost me dearly at times but in the long run I soldiered thru things and made the best of it. But IMHPO it is far more important to operate things as many have suggested. I would add that some of the change we have seen was necessary. Some of that change actually made us better managers of costs and looking at ways to improve things as a whole. But we have taken it far beyond effective or productive change.

I believe it is a necessity for the Exec to be well balanced in the trade. But we as the industry pro's need to set the standard. We're to blame. Plain and simple. It's not the bean counters, the upper level's of managment, or even the unreliable nature of the people that we employ. We accept these positions because they pay just enough money or hope it's a spring board into something better. Especially since the positions that pay just enough will be gone if you don't grab them. There's always gonna be some schmuck (I've sure worn that hat well over the years) that's willing to put up with things long enough for the folks above to get their monies worth outta them and then not give a rats "a $$" when I/we/they wake up and try to make the situation more reciprocal.

Basically it's up to us on how we re-educate ourselves and then educate those coming up thru the profession. It's really time to put the "nobility" back into our profession. There is so much of and about this topic that spills over into mainstream life that I personally could really step off the deep end about. So not to "remove all doubt" I'll end it now and practice some discretion. But what exactly can just a handful of folks that have a common goal to make things better than there are do? Really think about that one for a minute. It's happening again right before our eyes. Personally I'll "fight the good fight" and until my last breath but as Steven A pointed out... this week at least, I'm not the one making the rules.

[RAS1187]

I have yet to work in a restaurant that employs a pastry chef. Every single loaf of bread has been pulled out of the freezer; Every dessert comes in packages of 12; cases of 24. About 1 out of 4 guests will order a dessert here; most prefer ordering a larger entree.

Consequently, my baking abilities (if any) are very lacking, though so far I have managed not to mess up creme' brulee when we serve it on special occasions.

I have noticed that several Executive Chefs in this area formerly held titles as Pastry Chefs/Cooks at some point in their career; and vice versa. One Chef instructor at my school possesses both a CEPC and a CSC title. The integration of both skills into one person can elevate the value of a chef, as I'm sure alot of restaurants trying to cut costs would rather hire an EC that is a decent baker instead of hiring both an EC and an EPC.

[even stephen]

The question remains, how can you be an effective chef while
tied to pastry and bread production. Sure, in a small place its
possible to have a hybrid position, but, in a place that does any
business at all, its asking a little to much. The obvious solution is
training an hourly employee to do the baking and pastries. Training
a good line cook to make pasta for example. As long as it requires
no outside creativity or decision making, its certainly possible. It may
take a few weeks, but, thats how I would do it. Buying things on a
regular basis is pretty risky. I would hate to go to two different restaurants in two different cities and get the same identical dessert or bread.
I guess I am saying, if the chef has the skill, he could reserved a little
block of time and finish the finer desserts or make a special dessert every
day, but, full time production, thats pretty hard.

[shadowchef]

ive worked in bakery before bu i personally love baking as well although i do more cooking than anything and thats what i know more about. it is always nice to know whats goign on in the baking dept