Chef or Rocket Scientist

[Tanasy]

I never meant to create a dispute between the two job titles or their characteristics. I do most of my work in different regions of the United States; things may be different in other countries. I was simply trying to determine whether or not others had noticed that restaurants seem to be making this call.
I just think in many cases restaurants in the United States are trying to make changes to the industry to help them benefit and it seems to be working, because I notice more and more restaurants jumping on the band wagon. Sometimes when I have the opportunity of phone interview, they seem surprised that I have limited baking experience. Although I can bake cakes, create desserts and produce breads, they seem to expect more from me in that area and I can only come to think that it’s because they want to save money. When I hire a dishwasher I often ask him if he has any experience in food prep, and if he says (yes a little) well then that’s fine with me as long as he knows more about washing dishes and scrubbing pots. It’s not important if a waiter or waitress can cut vegetables as much as it is that they could dress-up a dinning table. I think that an executive chef should have the knowledge of covering that area of the kitchen when the pastry chef is taking a vacation or out sick, however he shouldn’t be expected to produce the same results with professionalism that respectively goes with the title of Pastry Chef.

Tanasy

[kuan]

I've had this kind of argument before, with myself and others. It's important that people are talking about the same thing.

IMO, pastry should be so specialized that it takes a different kitchen and an extra set of skills. There are things I consider line desserts, and I've stated my position before on cheftalk. These are simple things like custards, mousses, simple tarts, crepes, souffles. The hotside savory skills lend themselves well to these kinds of desserts, even simple batter cakes made at the moment could come straight off the line. Some people consider these pastry, I don't.

Things which should be domain of pastry are, but not limited to, meringues, tortes, dacquoise cakes, specialized piping designs like filigree, marzipan, candy, etc. There's a difference. These require significant preparation time, eye for detail, and most of all, a cool head and the ability to do fractions! I'd say, check and see what the job opportunity means by pastry and go from there.

[felixe the dog]

Originally Posted by winston

"Unique Selling Point"

aha! a competitive advantage, yes?

[panini]

I just have to add one more time. This conversation stems from money period.
Too many chefs and cooks are so wrapped up in their daily activities the can't see the forest from inside the trees. This industry is slowly being taken over by monopolistic thinking large food distributors and franchises. If they had it there way, the chefs would be armed with box cutters and time cards.
The Chef-Pastry Chef is just a small part of it. I really think we should be talking about the kick backs chef, and food service managersa are gettinf from limiting themselves to certain distributors. I don't have an ounce of respect for a chef that would sign into a contract to buy 95%++ of his food from one vendor and in return, get a huge bonus check. I don't have respect for them, but I do understand. One of the crudier parts of the graff system is the Chefs are working inhumain hours while upper management is splitting the bonuses.
For all you chefs out there that are a part of this type of buying pratice, you better know that someone is being greased if it is not you!
I personally can't believe that every post on this board isn't about this. It's ruinibng the industry and the worst part, it has eliminated the customer right out of the equasion.
Sorry for the rant Please don't bother to pop on and try to defend these companies, or this trend. It's a fact.
pan

[cookingwithfat]

Pan I'll defend the practice. I buy the bulk of my food from one company and I get nice savings for my Prime Vendor Contract. The owners are quite happy with the savings we see each quarter and the checks that get cut as a result. I do not compromise on food by the way, I just buy what I need from mainly one company. I buy produce from local farms in the summer and sea food from the local company that makes a run to Boston every day, but the bulk of what I purchase I get from my Prime Vendor. I must be clear, I do not compromise on my product.

Let me ask you a question: if I can buy the same product from one person as I can from many, for a lower price, and save myself the time of ordering from multiple people, why wouldn't I? I'm confused as to why I should lose your respect because I purchase with a prime vendor contract, and receive a bonus check - which here goes back towards the purchase of food and offsets my food cost. Last time I checked my job description food cost analysis was a MAJOR part of my daily routine.

[panini]

Chef,
There is no need to defend the practice. Maybe one day if you get the chance, you might want to take a drive to see if there are any small vendors left in your area. Maybe get a chance to see and hear this first hand. Who knows, you might even find higher quality products for a lesser price. You'll never know if you don't look. I know it's not convienient, but it has always been the job of the purchaser ( oh I forgot, they eliminated that job and put in order takers to fill in the premade inventory) to find the best product out there. The customer used to deserve that much.
If you choose to use the term bonus to justify a kickback, bribe, or whatever you want to call it, that's fine. You may not be locked into a high perventage, but I know of chefs that are locked into 95%. and if they want something from the smaller vendor, the large vendor will go snag it(probably put that small vendor 90 days out) and step on that product 3 times and deliver it with a smile.
I make half the revenue I could on wedding cakes with the large properties because I will never give the payola. My Grandfather and his friends fought much to hard to break up these monopolies and this type of pratice.
I can never have respect for anyone that I have to bribe to use my product.
It's all ok though, most smaller businesses will be gone in my sons lifetime. We just can't and don't want to write that check to you. It takes away from your customer.
This is a very ugly post. It will be the last on my part. I appologise for spouting the facts. Sorry
pan

[Jasman]

i am with tanasy on this one, what was meant as an inquiry as created far too much of a rift between two very different skills in the kitchen. Please allow me to explain. In my kitychen there are only 5 chefs. a commis, a chef de partie, a junior sous, a senior sous and a head chef. i am a chef de partie, my main responsibilties are to maintain the starter section, but also to run the pastry section. April i feel is very dismissive of cooking "at the hob" a dismissivness that chefs get too often from people who dont understand the stresses of working at the cooker. it is never "a piece of meat"!! is it sirloin? rib eye? shoulder? fillet? flank? thick flank? silverside? every different cut must be treated differently and i understand this definition even though i dont cook the **** steaks! i do however cook desserts and cakes, a part of cooking which differs very much from the rest. you cannot taste your work in progress when you're a pastry chef as most of the flavours really come together whilst baking; a process which you cannot disturb with impunity. While a chef can taste their sauce to judge its flavour and rectify it accordingly, a pastry chef must devote their absolute attention to the preperation of a dessert before baking to ensure a top quality product. Measurements, Ingredients, Method, Oven Temps, Timing. Pastry chefing is so demanding on time and concentration that an executive chef must rely on another to oversee this area in order to free up enough time to do thier own job properly. i have seen the lack of devotion in the pastry section more and more in restaurants
where i come from and it is a sin as it diminishes the customers quality of experience when dining out. As a final note i would like to re-iterate that i think April is very much in the Wrong, Arrogant and egotistical. As chefs we should value each others skill and technique and never diminish the work and effort we each put into a single plate of food. God bless you all ladies and gentlemen, there is no nobler profesion or toil than to work before an open flame to provide a meal for the pleasure and enjoyment of others.

[even stephen]

Pan,
I am suffering throught a primary vendor situation right now.
You know the biggest problem? I pretty much had one, I bought
about 90% of my product through one vendor, loved the service,
and the broad selection. No doubt, the finer things came from
different micro or specialty vendors. Whether its Swiss Chalet
or the local European cheese house, for some things you just have to
source. Local Farmers markets? Wish I had the time to go and buy
tomatoes everyday, but, I just don't at the moment. Oh! back to the
point. I had a vendor the problem was, the company I work for chose
another, with out the products I need, or products my clientele were
accustomed to. I wish it was like the old days. All fish from the fish
monger, all meat from the butcher, all veg and fruit from the local produce
man, etc. etc. I am a firm believer in keeping your business within the
immediate area. Local business, local vendor. Kickbacks are rare these
days, they go under the guise of free hotel rooms for shows, personal favors,
etc. The rebate checks will go to the specific property or unfortunately to
a corporate collective, never to be heard from again. 10% discount on $10
is about the same as $9 to start with. It always starts off good, but, then
they start throwing fairy dust. The smart way is one F&B purchaser that
does a whole region, if your dealing with a multi property operation. You
order from them, they order for you. The toughie is getting the right purchaser. Oh! The pain. I've now lost any savings, through all the trouble
I go through just to get the right product. So it goes......

[panini]

Stephen,
In my heart, I know the industry is tough on you chefs.
I appologise to CookingwithFat. This is a personal thing for me and my rants should never go personal which I tried not to do.
I guess it's just the philosophy of the whole thing. I can't figure out how I became Micro LOL.I just think these big vendors(monopolies) should not be able to call all the shots. I understand buying power, yadda, yadda. But to throw in those incentives(bribes) just to put the screws to the micro vendor is just going to far. I don't want to rant.
I was approached by a large vendor, you knowthe name. Well I guess I became a PIA for two products their customers were buying from me. We met, and it was nothing short of a mafia meeting. They spouted all their requirements, deadlines and such. Absolutely no talk of any tyoe of security. I expressed that this was a large investment for me to gear up with equipment and manpower, what would happen if they decided to buy in another product at a lower price. They told me that was the nature of the beast. So I mentioned about a friend who geared up cheesecake production for them and she has practically lost her business because they have nickled and dimed her to basically bankruptcy. Volume does not always translate into savings. These manufactures have to sacrifice some sort of quality to meet the vendor specs.It bothers me when a chef tells me that 12ct so called branded cheesecake of theirs is a good product.
BTW almost all of those big savings items can be traced back to a dozen or so mother companies.(same philosophy) The independents are getting the screws put to them.
pan
I can remember the days when I could actually have a cutting with the purchaser because he or she knew exactly what thier chef was looking for. They also had the most food knowlege on the property.
I have respect for every last one of us in this crazy industry.

[cookingwithfat]

Pan, thanks for the apology. I am not suggesting that I would not like to go out and shop farmers markets etc... it is just that I am in charge of a 120 seat restaurant that does 14 services a week. Between lunch and dinner 7 days a week I don't even have a day off. Further, and this is really important, I am in Vermont. The growing season here is very short. There really is no where that I can buy fresh produce other than from my vendors. I can buy from one small outfit, but in the winter they are buying the same thing my primary vendor buys and selling it at a higher price because of the name that they have for being the local connection. During the summer I love to buy local produce from them but that period of time is VERY short.

Also, you should know that there is no penalty for me if I do not buy 90% of my products from my prime vendor. What I have is a deal where the more I buy from them the higher the rebate I see at the end of the quarter. The check does not come to me, so I am in no way being "bribed". I don't think of this as kick backs or bribes I think of it as incentives. It makes sense to me that a company would say, "if you buy a lot from us we will make it worth your while." I don't have a problem with that. I would have a serious problem if they got upset when they saw cases of fresh tomatoes from my local guy, or complained about the honkin' hen of the woods the area forger brought in. But, they don't. The sales man is very personable. I like him alot. He was a chef for 15 years and gets what it is that I do. In nearly a year of working with him I have never found anything wrong with my invoices. My prices fluctuate mildly, a couple bucks north and south, but it all averages and nothing so bad that it makes me think I am being taken advantage of.

Oh, yea, this would be a good time to point this out... the company I am speaking of, is NOT the one you are thinking of. They did jerk me around and I kicked their rep out.

Anyway, I guess what I am saying is, I have no complaints. My products are great, and I am happy. Further, my customers are happy and the owners are happy. They show me their happiness by giving me a bonus when my food costs are where they should be. (Notice that I did not say, when my food costs are low, but rather where they should be. I am not encouraged to take the food by buying junk.) I still get to roam the farmers market and buy things for specials and have a great time, but my ordering is not a nightmare and I can have a bit of my life for things like... oh I don't know... laying in bed with my girlfriend and well... not thinking about ordering from ten different guys.

I will say this Pan, if you are concerned about the general decline of the small store across the board in the United States, I am with you. I live in a small town and Walmart and the like would love to get their talons into us. As far as my job goes, I don't deal with those who are evil and do believe that the larger company I am working with are doing the right thing. I am happy.

[AprilB]

(or ability to understand what you read?)

Do so many of you have such fragile egos that you can't read a different take on cooking from yours without needing to personally attack the messenger? Or are you constantly afraid of the realization that basically I might just be right on one level?

If anyone had really paid attention, Mike's post was making light of baking/pastries. I happen to like the creative side of pastries better than flipping beef, but why isn't anyone jumping on the bandwagon to 'set him straight' or calling him...arrogant or ignorant? I never called him anything that attacked him personally.

Sorry, but I found that uncalled for and rude and totally inappropriate. The truth in food is NO chef, cook, or whatever you call yourself is any better than your ingredients or what you personally do with them. Like it or not, anything you prepare is still just a raw ingredient. You think making a quiche with old eggs, mouldy cheese and slimy greens is going to be as good as fresh ingredients no matter how careful you are? You think that a steak on the grill is going to care if you take tongs and flip it or baby it "gently" when you .... well ... flip it? Yeah, there are all kinds of methods and I've done a lot of different styles in my life. (for instance, yes I have made steaks regularly at home the way I mentioned in the original post that started this mudslinging towards me) I also still retain my SOH. (that's Sense of Humor in case some of you haven't figured it out) You HAVE to when you get splashed with burning oil when bricking a grill, or all the pan scars on your forearms from sheetpans.

It doesn't matter what aspect of food you're in. It's still just MAKING FOOD. JEEZ LOUIZE! You cook it, bake it, broil it, flip it, make it fancy or not and God willing people LIKE IT! You don't waive your hand over it like some sort of Kitchen Jedi.

Isn't that what it's really all about?

I'm finding it fairly amusing that this has turned into an eggshell forum.

Go ahead...pick this one apart too. I'll just sit back and read all of the defensive stuff you have to throw at me. (No, Pan, you've been completely diplomatic as usual )

Lighten up!

April

[even stephen]

Shoot April,
I didn't think one part of this trade was any better than another.
I respect each part of the team in the kitchen, whether it be pastry
chef, dishwasher or cook. Take a chill pill sister. I do agree with one
thing though, it ain't rocket science. There's a reason we don't get paid
as well as doctors and lawyers. At the end of day, its just blue collar work.
Sometimes I think people read to much into these posts. You seem like a
real pistol April, keep at it! Let me say one thing, for a blue collar job, there
sure is a lot of paperwork these days. I've got to hand in a sales report and
a cost of goods report for a senior pga tournament a couple of weeks ago.
I am in the middle of season and don't have the time. Bad thing was, we did
double the guarantee with out any notice. I pulled 3 or 4 thousand meals out
of my you know what over the course of a week. Keep up the good work
April, I enjoy every one of your posts. Sorry to babble, just had a glass of
wine.

[mochefs]

April, when you're wrong, you're wrong.

Disrespecting someone else just because you felt disrespected only makes you childish. You could have immediately followed up your first post with, "yeah, I was just steamed at what he said and lashed out when I shouldn't have" and been done with it.

But from what I've read of your posts on this board I don't think I'll be expecting that any time soon.

You continue to talk yourself into the corner, without a leg to stand on, and to be honest, from what I've read throughout these forums I think you do it on purpose. Either that or you have some extreme sensitivity and ego issues. We used to call your kind of posts 'Trolling', or being a 'Troll'. i.e. trolling to create controversy with yourself at the center of it. Wonder if that word is still used.

MikeB's original post that got you in such a tizzy was pretty benign, if a bit arrogant. Essentially he was saying "hey, it aint rocket science, why shouldn't a chef be able to cover all sides of the house". What he did *not* say was that one side of the house was better or more skilled than another.

Maybe he is some rare bird who is capable of running the show *and* being a fine pastry chef, and that drives his opinion, who knows. But at least his arrogant opinion was a direct response to the question the thread was asking....whether or not the chef should be able to run the whole show, or whether pastry is a specialization that should be outside the pervue of the chef. It certainly didn't seem to me, or most of us apparently, that he was saying "A stupid monkey could do pastry".

(And if he was I'm pretty sure the adult response isn't to respond with "oh yeah, well, well, a *really* stupid monkey could be a line cook....so there...nyahh nyahh a boo boo" )

"SOH" seems alive and well in everyone but you. In your case you seem to use it as a cop-out for when you say something stupid.

p.s. - If any of the above hurt your feelings then I was just kidding, ok?

[cookingwithfat]

I was really busy last night slappin' some meat on a grill like a trained monkey so I had to put off replying to April's post, and I must say I am so glad I did. I had so many things I wanted to say but I got so confused because I couldn't remember how long the onglet had been on the grill or when I put the bavette in the oven and well I guess it didn't matter really because it is just meat, but aw shucks I figured the owners might like it is I concentrated on my easy as pie, no where near as hard as pastry, job. Thank the lord Mochefs' reply hit the nail right on the head. I could not have said it better myself.

And by the way April, I have a great sense of humor, my mom says so.

[SGMChef]

Tanasay,

I am tracking with you. Yes, there is a solid case for your assertion. More with less, increase the bottom line, etc.

Filling in is one thing and BEING the Pastry Chef in addition to being the Exec. Chef is quite another. I have done extensive sugar work in competitions, as a diversion from the day-to-day food preparation I must to do. I am definitely not a Pastry Chef though! (I only have time for a little caramel work in a production environment and couldn’t possibly do anything more with killing myself. I am too SLOW!)

I think it unreasonable for anyone to expect to cut costs by expecting a Chef to fulfill the requirements of a Pastry Chef. I have pretty high expectations for products from a Pastry Chef because for me, this is a different vocation. How would you like to be hired on as a Pastry Chef and then be informed that you now have to be the Executive Chef also, as part of your duties!

As usual, these decisions come from people that have never done either job!

Just my opinion…