ChefTalk Knife buying, selection and care guide

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by CookingAngry

Man,

You must tell me what every knife on the table is. Now. Pretty Please.

Tsk. You should be able to recognize them. Let's see how I do.

Top left (top to bottom): wa handled single bevel yani -- about 240mm; wa-handled deba about 180 mm; plastic handled 6" utility (or posibly flex fillet)

Top right (top to bottom): 10" cimiter (Forschner blue fibrox -- "B"); 8" breaker (B), 6" semi-stiff boning (B); Chinese-style vegetable chopper (very cheap, carbon steel, Dexter/Yan/Chen or maybe even cheaper).

Far top right: Meat cleaver.

Bottom (left to right): 12" cake/bread slicer (Forschner); 12" German profile ("GP") Chef's (probably used as a "lobster cracker" and other heavy-duty); 10" GP Chef's; 8" GP Chef's; 8" German bolster shape ("GB") slicer, 10" French Profile chef's; 8" FP chef's; 6-1/2" desosser shape ("D") fillet/boning (Lamson?); 6" GP chef's; 6" GB utility; 6" GB D boning; tomato knife (not too sure about that one, actually); 4" GB couteau office shape ("O") parer; 4" plastic handled O parer; 3" parer (I forget the name for the shape, similar to but not called a desosser, looks like it's been sharpened a lot though); 3" O parer; 3" parer (bec d'oiseau aka tourne); 180 mm usuba/nakiri; 180 mm santoku; 130 mm (?) santoku; bayonet (aka straight) cook's fork; pot/carving (aka curved) cook's fork without a pot button.

So?

BDL

[yorvo]

Since it's show and tell I thought I'd have some fun, so I dug up my old knives. I've never been much of a tool whore so my collection is small but adequate. Sure a nicer knife may help me do my job a little easier, but a lesser knife isn't going to stop me from doing it either.

This was my bread and butter kit for years. It's all I've ever really needed. I like to travel light. I bought that Connoisseur french knife for $12.95 in 1983. That was the first knife I bought as a young salad guy. If that knife could talk. I still use it sometimes. The German stuff I've had since about 1988.



This is a kit I got few years back. A perk of being chef. It's nice and I use it but it doesn't have near the miles as the above kit. But it still has some stories I'm sure.

[foodpump]

Yeah, that photo looks quite similiar to my collection. Remember now, we eat starting with the outmost cutlery first--pot roast fork for oysters, cook`s fork for salad, and the cake knife to spread butter on the rolls, boning knife of course is used for dessert....



Still use my first knife, a 10" Henkels "Zwilling", bought over 25 years ago, it's shrunk considerably, same for the "bird's beak" turning knife, my cook's fork's tines has been straightened out a few times (had an eejit d/w who used it to break apart frzn spinach blocks once to many times...) "used to" have some nice "office'' (paring) knives, Driezack (Wusthof) I think, but they're buried in the garbage somewhere during the aspergaus season. These have been replaced by (hush now and cross your heart) Ikea stuff..well, they`re cheap and they don`t cost a fortune to replace.

Among my "Monsters" is a Victorinox "Schlag Messer" weighing in at 820 grams (a bit under 2 lbs) with the blade almost 13`` long and 3``wide, (handle is another 5``long) it does alot of the same things a cleaver can do. I keep it in my chocolate room and use it to take out my frustrations on those 5 kg slabs of rock-hard couveture. The other is an F Dick meat pounder. This thing is massive, over 2 lbs and all cast with an offset handle, done many a schniztel and paillard with that thing.

[Saltydog]

Show and tell?

[Yargg]

I think I cut myself just looking at that knife salty dog..

anyone have opinions on ceramic knives? I've been thinking of getting one.

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by Yargg

anyone have opinions on ceramic knives? I've been thinking of getting one.

They're too fragile to be really useful on the line. Like all knives, they eventually dull, and can't easily be resharpened. For a discerning home user, it might take four months to dull. But what's that on the line? Three or four weeks? By and large they are an expensive and unreliable solution to a non-problem for anyone who can sharpen their own knife.

On the other hand, there are some relatively inexpensive Chinese ceramic knives which have moved into the market in the last few years. I've also heard, anecdotes to the proposition that ceramics can be resharpened using diamond "honing" paste, but not from anyone I trust enough to count them as "information."

Also, my viewpoint might be clouded because my go to gyuto is much longer than the ceramics, I own quite a few good knives, am good enough at sharpening them to make them as sharp as a ceramic, and enjoy it enough that it isn't a chore (isn't that always a key?).

Bottom line: I've never known a working pro who's been happy with a ceramic for more than a couple of months. If you can afford to fool around with something that has a lot of issues, you should. But at the current SOTA (state of the art), it's just a gimmick. As the SOTA changes, everything else may change as well. I think you're better off spending the money on a couple of Shapton GS stones, your first, really good Japanese knife, or maybe even an old, carbon steel Sabatier like mine.

BDL


PS. I'm told there have been complaints regarding non-pros posting in this part of the forum. FWIW, I'm ex-pro, line, catering, and teaching; but don't want to change my identity to "ex-chef" because I feel the word "chef" means something I was not. Maybe Nicko can give us an "ex-chef d'partie," "ex-line slave," or "taught a few classes" classifications to select from.


PPS. All you pros, take a look at my blog and leave some comments please. Even though the book isn't directed at you, I appreciate the perspective. Thanks, BDL

[Yargg]

Thanks for the input BDL, thats what I was afraid of with them. The only pro i'd ever seen using them was Ming Tsai (but my view into the pro world involves the very small kitchen I work at where both the more trained cook and the chef use their knives from culinary school... and TV), and he seemed to have an endorsement deal, so I wasn't sure.

I think I'm going to get either a MAC or Kangetsu Pro M, sharpen up my parents old sabatier (years of no sharpening + dishwashing make for a very dull knife! I have to figure out how to sharpen off enough steel to return its point too.. they really took bad care of it!) and as far as sharpening stones, what grits would you recommend?


Thanks again,
Mike

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by Yargg

Thanks for the input BDL, thats what I was afraid of with them. The only pro i'd ever seen using them was Ming Tsai (but my view into the pro world involves the very small kitchen I work at where both the more trained cook and the chef use their knives from culinary school... and TV), and he seemed to have an endorsement deal, so I wasn't sure.

Yes. He's got a deal with Kyocera, and has for ages. He also has some of the best knife technique ever. That guy can flat prep.

I think I'm going to get either a MAC or Kangetsu Pro M, sharpen up my parents old sabatier (years of no sharpening + dishwashing make for a very dull knife! I have to figure out how to sharpen off enough steel to return its point too.. they really took bad care of it!) and as far as sharpening stones, what grits would you recommend?

MAC Original, Superior and Chef, Kanetsugu, and any Sabatier can all be effectively sharpened on oil stones (as opposed to water stones). Oil stones are less expensive and far easier to maintain than waterstones. So, I think they're best for the direction you're heading in.

You're going to need to reprofile the Sabatier -- assuming it can be saved. Knives which have gone through the diswhasher frequently have such major handle issues it's not worth repairing their blades. That means having a coarse enough stone to handle that task -- but it's a surface you won't use very often. So, I hate to spend a lot on it, or waste a lot of space. The alternative is to have something just coarse enough to profile, but fine enough to use as the first sharpening surface. The equivalent of a fine Crystolon or medium India if you know Norton stones.

That you're even discussing freehand sharpening on stones indicates an interest in a well finished edge -- so you're going to want your final surface to do more polishing than sharpening. Assuming, these are good guesses, here are two recommendations.

Hall's Commercial 8" Wet Hone ($48 -- three surfaces) Commercial Knife Sharpening Stones Commercial Knife Sharpening I recommend the Commercial over the less expensive Home Tri-Hone because the Commercial stone holder can go into the dishwasher, stones and all. More about specific maintenance issues if and when you decide to use oil stones. Suffice it to say, they do need to be cleaned frequently, but don't need to be prepped ever, and only very infrequently flattened. The Norton equivalent has a better rough stone, a better box, not nearly as good a soft Arkansas, and costs double.

Four surface, mixed set: Norton 8 x 3 x 1 coarse India; Norton 8 x 3 x 1 fine India; Hall's 8 x 3 x 1 soft Arkansas; Hall's 8 x 3 x 1 black Arkansas. This is the set I use for almost everything (about $150).

Here's a different way to go...

Four surface, Japanese set: Norton 220/1000 and 4000/8000 combi water stones. The set comes with a flattener. You'll need to add a stone holder and a nagura prep stone. (about $150, altogether). Not the best waterstones in the world, but not the worst. More polish than you need, but you can't beat the price with a good 220/ 1000/ 4000 set plus flattener -- so you might as well start here if you decide to go the waterstone route.

Most professional sharpeners will "fix" a broken tip by reprofiling the knife completely. If you're good enough to recreate the old profile, you're also good enough to know it's not worth what the customer will have to pay for your time. It's not a cheap repair, and it's important for the customer to have a very definite idea of what (s)he wants so as not to overspend. If you have somebody else do it, make sure they take off enough to form an entirely new point rather than savying the old, and tell them you don't care about retaining the old blade's shape.

If you do it yourself, the best way to take care of a broken or highly deformed tip is to create an entirely new point without trying to mimic the old geometry. And usually the best way to do that is by sharpening down from the spine, rather than up from the edge.

First create the point, by holding the spine square to the stone and slowly abrading a new tip. The farther back towards the handle the more like a "spear" and regular French profile the knife will look. The farther away, the more like a sheep's foot or santoku. There's a common Japanese profile that splits the difference -- which is what you'll probably end up with. Start grinding about 3/4 to 4/5 of the way to where the tip is going to have to be and don't worry too much about curving. Start gradually, then increase the degree of arc as you near the point (by lifting the handle).

Once you've established a point that meets healthy edge, you can start profiling it -- still from the spine until it's got a shape you like. Take your time, it's a lot of work and you won't want to go back. Then, take care of an outstanding issue you didn't even know you had. That is, round over the spine in the inch or so closest to the hande. This will make the knife a lot more comfortable to handle.

Finally, profile sharpen and polish the edge. Whatever's still left of the edge is not only dull, but probably pitted from dishwasher detergent, and wildly inappropriate for someone who can sharpen her or his own knife. If the old Sab is a carbon, I recommend a flat bevel, with 50/50 symmetry and a 15 deg edge angle (30 deg included angle). That's how I usually sharpen mine, anyway. If it's stainless, we'll take it out at about a 20 deg edge angle.

If and when you get there, I'll give you some very specific instructions for how to do the point and edge profiling, and the edge sharpening and polishing. Not to mention how to hold the proper angle consistently, and how to use and take care of your stones. Right now, I'm just trying to let you know you can do a good job of it.

BDL

[BryanJ]

Let's not bicker.

As far as knives go, when I went to CHIC/LCBP (The Cooking and Hospitality Institute of Chicago Le Cordon Bleu Program), they gave us Messermeister kits. Not good knives. Within a month I bought a 12 inch (!!!) Wustie LCB chef. Great knife. Thin blade, flexible enough to fillet, and no bolster to get in the way of sharpening. I still use it. However, I got a new job recently, and the fish guy uses this six-inch Sabatier 5-Star that is from the 60's and is all carbon, with no belly what so ever. I am in love with that knife. I found a few on Craigslist and Ebay. Now, all I use are old Sabs. Great knives.

[Smokeychef]

My experience with knives are that no matter what brand you buy it will never be your last set. Good expencive knives will last a long time most likely keep their edge longer, but everyday use in the kitchen will wear them out. My advice to you being a culinary student is to go to a culinary store and handle each knife. Find the one that you like and see how well it fits your hand. Ask yourself if its comfortable can you hold it for 8,10,12,14 hours a day. Is it balanced? I myself use Le cordon bleu knives. They are not very expencive and they hold an edge, but I also recommend with the cheaper knives to hone them on a steel after every 10 minutes of constant use. not much just a couple of passes. By doing this you will keep a good edge and wont have to place your knife on a sharpener which will have you replacing it sooner. I hoped this helped you even though I didnt compare all brands and give differences between them. Remember a good knife is the one that you make your living with not the brand name.

[boar_d_laze]

Bryan and Smokey -- Were you responding to any particular posts or just doing general knife recommendation?

Originally Posted by BryanJ

Let's not bicker.

As far as knives go, when I went to CHIC/LCBP (The Cooking and Hospitality Institute of Chicago Le Cordon Bleu Program), they gave us Messermeister kits. Not good knives. Within a month I bought a 12 inch (!!!) Wustie LCB chef. Great knife. Thin blade, flexible enough to fillet, and no bolster to get in the way of sharpening. I still use it. However, I got a new job recently, and the fish guy uses this six-inch Sabatier 5-Star that is from the 60's and is all carbon, with no belly what so ever. I am in love with that knife. I found a few on Craigslist and Ebay. Now, all I use are old Sabs. Great knives.

Nobody's bickering. It's a conversation.

The LCB line was such a wild success Wusthof's decided to discontinue it awhile ago. If you like them -- deal time if you can find them. They were very nice knives. They actually have a bolster, but it's "cut down" in the sense the finger guards are gone. If I'm not mistaken, Ikon and Classic Ikon are Wustie's only lines still featuring the cut down bolster.

AFAIK, there is no "5-star Sabatier." You presumably were momentarily confused by Henckels Five Star, and meant "**** [4-star] Sabatier." At any rate, 4-star was absorbed by Thiers-Issard Elephant Sabatier who are still making carbon knives in the same way from more or less the same steel. I have two modern Thiers-Issard **** Elephant Sabatier (desosser, and couteau office) and they're about as good as my older Sabs. Definitely recommended for someone who wants European carbon knives.

Thiers-Issard has some "New Old Stock" blades from the late twenties and early thirties which they sell as "Nogent." They used to have quite a bit, but a lot has been sold and some shapes are gone. I've got three Nogents. These are very good knives as well, although the handle which is just a block of ebony might be impractical for a modern commercial environment. With that and the European carbon caveat, again highly recommended.

Both the new Thiers Issard and the old Nogent are sold online by The Best Things. Sabatier Kitchen Knives at The Best Things

K-Sabatier still makes the same au carbone knives they've been making since the late fifties. I bought my first in the early seventies, and have bought a few since. Wonderful knives. As far as I can tell the last ones I bought in 2001 are just as good as the first ones I bought. Kitchen Sabatier Knives : French cutlery from Thiers

There are a series of NOS carbon Sabatiers made in Canada which are sold by both K-Sab ("Antique") and The Best Things ("Massif"). Also great knives. Thiers Issard's story is that the knives are early 20th Century, and K-Sab says they're from the fifties. I think they're both selling the same knives, and if I had to guess, I'd guess sixties -- because I have three of them which were given to me in the early seventies by my executive chef at the Blue Fox, who'd bought them new and had them for a few years but hadn't used them -- or so he said. At any rate they were unused (and duller than snot) when i got them in '72ish.

And let's not forget Mercier et Cie and their various labels. Fantes sells them, and other places too. These are good knives, but my impression is that they roll and wave a little easier than the K-Sabs or the **** Elephants because of different surface hardening.

About half of my knives, pretty much all of the regularly used ones are new, old, vintage or antique Sabatier carbon of one sort or another. Every one of them is a great knife. That said, I never recommend carbon knives to anyone who hasn't either already expressed an interest or wants to know "everything."

They'll out perform even very good stainless steel (better than Wusthof) in almost every way. But honestly, there are better knives for the price. Setting aside my emotional commitment to the knives I learned on, and their historical interest -- if I had to buy again, I'd still buy carbon but I wouldn't buy Sabatier, I'd buy Kikuichi Elite, Togiharu, or Masmaoto HC (first choice, but more expesnive).

One of the advantages in good carbon steel, and Sabatier in particular is how easily they sharpen to a great edge. That said, the prospective buyer should beware that most "new" and almost every "old" Sabatier is going to come to you needing quite a bit of work to get that edge. If sharpening isn't your thing, a carbon Sab is probably the wrong knife for you. Buy something that's sharp out of the box, and won't break your heart when it gets scratched up by your pull through sharpener or the service you take it too. In other words, don't worry about buying the best knife -- try and find the best knife for you.

Anyway, to keep some perspective, all of the knives mentioned are very good and the performance differences are very slight. I think carbon steel is generally a better choice for a cook who really enjoys knife work and doesn't work in an environment where the benefits of the steel outweigh the extra care required. But it's just an opinion, it's not like I read it off of stone tablets.

BDL

[Smokeychef]

Smokey -- Were you responding to any particular posts or just doing general knife recommendation?

I was just responding to the original posted thread. There are people way more qualified to reccommend knives than myself. I was just giving a little advice on choosing a knife.

[boar_d_laze]

Originally Posted by Smokeychef

I was just responding to the original posted thread. There are people way more qualified to reccommend knives than myself. I was just giving a little advice on choosing a knife.

Solid advice, IMO.

BDL

[BryanJ]

Yeah, you're right I was slightly confused. I was just continuing the knife advice by offering my experience. That's all.

[Rambo]

I'm looking for suggestions on good serrated knives- not necessarily a bread knife, more of like a 8" utility knife with an offeset handle. I've used a Forschener, which an old chef swore by, but it dulls and it's not worth sharpening. He suggested throwing it out and buying a new one ( they're less than $20), but it seems like a waste of a good knife and $20 every year or so. Any suggestions on models and manufacturers would be appriciated.