[left4bread]

Our lease is up on our A-clr one rack dish-washer. We've been renting it for almost 10 years. We've been using eco product in our other dish-washer and our two glass-washers, though, and were strongly considering buying a Jackson machine to replace the A-clr machine. I always thought that it just went without saying; if you can't afford to buy a machine, then you rent one.
But now after talking with eco reps and A-clr reps (who just contradict each other) I'm not sure which way to go...

Any thoughts?

[foodpump]

No one's replied untiil now, I guess

Eco-lab is going to make money one way or the other.

It is cheaper to outright purchase a machine and get the detergent through your local purveyor. Intial cost for doing so is high, but average it out over the next 10 years and it is waaay cheaper.

Unless you're running a hospital or senior's home, you don't need the eco-lab stuff. You can get the soap through your purveyor, hand soap at Costco, specialized chemicals at food equipment dealers or janitorial suppliers, and usually the prices are a substantially cheaper then through Eco-lab. Take a look at other prices.

Remember, with a high-temp dishwaher your sanitizng is achieved with high temperatures, not chemicals.

Low-temp machines use much more "stuff", especially sanitizer (which high temps don't) than high-temp machines. True, high temp machines use a bit more power, but they do the job much, much better--especially on glassware.

Shop around and see who has machines for sale, what is the price, how much power and water do they consume per load, cost, and warranty.

Hope this helps

[left4bread]

Originally Posted by foodpump

No one's replied untiil now, I guess

I was kinda expecting more replies, but maybe it's a boring topic.

Why would only a retirement center need to use eco products?
Another assumption I made about dish-washing machines is that the high temp machines are nicer (cleaner dishes), but use more than "a bit" more power. But you're saying that it's not that much power? I'll look into it then. Thanks for the reply.

Oh, btw, one of the reasons I don't want to buy detergents from Costco is that with A-clr and eco, I get free PROMPT repairs (minus parts if not renting machine). Very useful. I'm not sure I want to lose that service.

[foodpump]

High temp machines need hot water. If your regular h/w heater is good then you only need a booster heater, which boosts the water temp. Many senior's homes have the hot water temps set very low so residents don't scald themselves, an require a separate hot water hater for the kitchen. If you have 220 volt 3 phase wiring, then you can lower your power consumption a bit. A low temp machine will still require power to run the pump and of course regualr hot water as well. Low temps are notorius for sucking up sanitizer and detergent, they also do a poorer job on glassware simply because the water isn't hot enough to clear off lipstick, fingerprints, grease, etc.

Never said to buy detergent at Costco. Costco usually only sells powdered detergent: Nasty stuff, it is abrasive and harsh, and very wasteful when compared to liquid detergent metered out by d/w machines. It's also very hard on your machines

Most purveyors--the kind you get your produce and staples from--will carry liquid detergent and rinse aid, most purveyors will carry a partial line of cleaning and sanitizing stuff, you order it in with your regular orders.

Hospitals and senior's homes require very thorough sanitizing, and it's to be expected when feeding people with compromised immune systems. Health inspectors and internal management require very thorough sanitizing procedures and prefer brand name products. Eco-lab is great, but Generic stuff is just as good.

Servicing A good dishwasher only needs servicing maybe once a year--provided YOU keep up with daily maintenence and supervision of the actual dishwasher operating the machine. Dishware MUST be scraped clean before loading. If you don't, food debris gets caught in the pump and pump impellor, in the filters and filter baskets, in the spray arms, and in the rinse arms. Stuff like baby clams, toothpicks, wrappers, citrus seeds etc, wreak right havoc with the machines. This stuff can be removed easily, but you have to catch it early. Same goes for grease, even hot water water won't keep the interior of the machine clean, can't stuff a plate with a 1/4" of bacon or prime rib fat on it, and expect the machine to keep itself grease free.

Sanitizer, by it's very nature is very corrosive, and the feed lines to a low temp machine need to be replaced much more often. High temp machines don't require sanitizer.

Big boys like eco-lab like to do a package deal. Soaps and stuff for the kitchen and bar, handsoap and air fresheners for the guest rooms, etc. It all costs money, and if a supplier can't make money they won't offer the service. It's your money. A creative owner/manager will source different suppliers for soap, paper products, cleaning products, etc.

Hope this helps

[even stephen]

I'd recommend buying your machine.....all the companies out there will rip you off if you don't know how to wash dishes and run a machine......ecolab,
puritan, cheney, etc. As the posts say....all it takes is one bar straw to get caught in the wrong place and the concentration levels fall and you rip through solid power or the like at $80 a cs like crazy....take the time to learn about your machine....figure out whether its better to dispense detergent by cycle or with a concentration meter....don't let the company you pick set the
concentration levels at optimum....its twice to much and costs you way to much....be sure and use delimer and maintain your machine....above all know your machine and monitor your chemicals...good luck

[left4bread]

That would actually be the biggest difference between the two competitors:
A-clr charges per rack, not for detergent used.
Eco charges for detergent.
In fact that's what Eco guys keep saying, "I don't sell dish-machines, I sell detergent".

That said, it would behoove A-clr to over dilute their detergent and Eco to run their mix rich. I don't believe the people that I've dealt with, on either side, would try to pull that with us. We're a fairly big account and it would be stupid of them to "kill the goose", so to speak.

Both companies rent machines, and they want you to rent -not buy.
We're buying. That's all there is to it. We're not signing another contract.

I just wanted some outside references; some opinions from people who don't stand to benefit from our decision.
You've given me that, so...

THANKS!

[ACRep]

Dear Left4bread,
I am a Auto-Chlor Representative. I have worked in this industry for 10 years and possess a bit of knowlede in this area.
Please know that I am not sending you this message to try to direct you one way or the other.
I am only sending this to try to help you make an informed decision. You can do the math yourself.

To really know if it is a good decision to purchase your own machine you need to figure out how much money you will save each billing period and divide that # by the price of the equipment you plan to purchase.

To do this you will need your last 6 invoices from AC. If you do not have these call your AC office and they will get those for you.

You will find the "Total DW Cost" toward the top right of your invoice, this is the cost of your dishwasher rental and extra racks wash combined. It does not include any extra items such as janitorial supplies or tax. Only the cost of operating your dishwasher for the 4 week period.
Add up all six invoices and divide by 6. This will give you the Average dishwashing bill for the last 6 periods.
Now add up the racks washed on each invoice and divide by 6. this will give you the Average racks washed per 4 week period. you will find this number on the top left of the invoice marked "Racks".
I assume Ecolab has proposed an Estimated per load cost and am going to guess that that cost is around 4.9 cents per load.

The rest is simple.
Take your average racks washed and multiply by the estimated per load cost of 4.9 cents.

Example: Lets say your run 8000 racks per 4 week period.

4.9 x 8000 = $392.00 chemical purchase for your machine.

Average dishwashing bill from AC = $412.00

Savings of $20.00

Now take the savings amount and divide that by the purchase amount of the machine and you will find the amount of time it will take to regain the money you have paid for your investment.

Example:
Cost of machine $3500.00 divided by $20.00 = 175 four week periods or 13 years.

You will also have to pay for parts that may wear during this time.
Something that you do not do currently if you have an Auto-Chlor machine.

Now you just have to decide if the amount of time to regain your investment back makes sense for your business or if you would be better off investing that money someplace else.

Hopefully this has helped you make an informed business decision about your potential investment.

Sincerily,

ACRep

[foodpump]

I've got trouble with those numbers....

8,000 racks per 4 week period = 2,000 racks per week, or 285 racks per day (assuming its a 7 day/week operation)

One d/w cycle is 120 seconds, or two minutes . 285 x 2 = 570, divided by 60 (minutes in an hour), gives me a figure of 9.5.

Or in kitchen-speak, the dishwasher is running 9 and a half hours per day non-stop, or every two- three minutes the whole day, and those numbers are based on a 7/24 operation.

The cost given for a new d/w is $3,500 which leads me to believe that this would be an under-counter model. No undercounter dishwasher can stand that kind of volume for sustained period of time like two or three years.

I'm currently paying $115.00 per 2 x 10 liter (or aprox 5 US gallons) case of detergent, and $175.00 per 2 x 10 ltr case of rinse aid.

Granted, my consumption is based on volume, but $392 for a month's worth of d/w chemicals would be very high. For a larger place with banquet facilities yeah, sure, but for a place with a single tank, under-counter model?

[ACRep]

Rated at 40 racks an hour, an Auto-Chlor Machine has a 90 second cycle time regardless of design (under counter, pass-thru or corner model) and uses only 1.5 (real world) gallons of water.

You are absolutly correct, 8000 loads is an awful lot of loads for an under-counter machine although it could be done, and with good service the machine would last for quite some time.
The machine we are talking about here is a low-temp pass-thru or corner model not an under-counter.
We have many locations that run 10,000 - 12,000 loads on this same machine in a four week period of time.
Lets assume that this location was only open 10 hours a day that would be an average of 28.6 racks an hour to reach 8000 loads in four weeks.
As this person said "we are a fairly big account" this tells me that the loads I have estimated should be in the area of 6,000-10,000 per 4 week period so I split the difference.
$392.00 in chemical costs for four weeks running 8000 loads is actually a ridiculously low cost for chems (Detergent, Sanitizer and Rinse) on this machine. Granted this is based on an estimate.

I would venture to guess that if you measured (cc's or ml's) the amount of chemicals being dispensed into your machine and worked the math you would find that you are spending more than that. Probably more like 5.5 - 8.0 cents per load.
It's easy to do, if you would like to know how let me know.

[foodpump]

Fair enough.

I do not like low-temps for a number of reasons, the first being that they usually get the "hairy eyeball" from the health inspector. Usually they (inspectors) want to see inspections every 6 mths for feed lines, pumps, and general corrosion. And they like to see ph strips to test the strength and age of the sanitizer. With high temps all they want to see is the final rinse temp., clean water in the tank and then they're gone

The second reason being that low temps do not do a good as job on glassware as high temps, and more importantly, washed ware takes much longer to dry because the final rinse temperature is much lower than a high temp machine.

The last reason is the cost of sanitizer. True, sanitizer is the lowest priced of the three (detergent, rinse aid, and with low temps, sanitizer). Still it adds a cost that can be avoided by using hot water. And yes, high temps do consume more energy in terms of hot water heating, but then a low temp will still draw hot water as well. So its 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other, but for me the benefits are much better with a high temp machine.

Most machines can be set for 90 seconds or 120 seconds. The final rinse time is the same. I find I get better results with the 120 second program. Virtually every new machine now meets the 1.5 US gallon per load water consumption, be it Jackson, Hobart, Berkel, Champion/MD, and a host of European machines that are slowly infiltatrating the N.A market.


Pricing. Cities, purveyors, distances and machines vary greatly. In spite of this, I have found that purchasing chemicals through broad liners or purveyors is usually cheaper--by almost 7%, than going through a chemical company. It is still the same product.

[ACRep]

You have your personal opinion, and I respect that. You know your business better than anybody else does, as does Left4bread.
Whats good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander.
I'm not trying to sway the decision to the left or to the right. I'm am only hoping to show these folks a tool to judge weather or not it would be a good investment to purchase their own equipment.
By the way the "Hairy Eyeball" (love this quote) has never been a problem with an Auto-Chlor machine. Health inspectors usually smile when they see one in a kitchen because they know that this equipment gets regular 4 week maintenance from a qualified service tech. It would be unlikly that this location has ever got a negative mark from the health dept on the dish machine in the last 10 years.

Thank you for your responses.

[foodpump]

Yes... everyone has their opinion. Problem is, the O.P (original poster) was seeking the opinion of Chefs, and this forum is dedicated to Professional Chefs only. I am sure the O.P has done his due diligence and contacted the AC rep in his area.

[left4bread]

Originally Posted by foodpump

Yes... everyone has their opinion. Problem is, the O.P (original poster) was seeking the opinion of Chefs, and this forum is dedicated to Professional Chefs only. I am sure the O.P has done his due diligence and contacted the AC rep in his area.

ROFL

We received a visit from an AC rep a couple of days after I started this thread. edit: I should say that they did actually mentioned this thread on this site when they visited.
When I realized that my repeated use of the company's name was making the thread show up on the top of a Google search, I went through and edited the names out of my posts.
I apologize for that. It wasn't my intention to draw unnecessary attention to the thread.
So, the replies are, more likely than not, directed towards me, personally. The numbers used are from my place. Yup, 8000 average; 10,000 racks last August.

They found me.

I appreciate the line of conversation, but Foodpump is right: I was seeking the opinions of professional chefs on the matter. Both companies were throwing numbers around and my mind was swimming with stats and numbers. I just wanted a normal conversation, down to earth, with a few peers. I have all of the information from AC already so it's getting kind of redundant in here.

[foodpump]

Welcome aboard left4bread!

Do yourself a favour and check the prices on d/w chems with your Broadliner.