[kongfeet]

Hi. Saw Mario Batali's braised short rib recipe in his Babo cookbook. It says to braise them at 375 F for 2 hours. I've never braised any meat at such a high temperature for such a short peroid of time (I usually do it at 275 F for 6 hours, and on occasions, I've done a 12 hour braise at 180 F). I'm not dissing him, cuz I think he's a great chef, but am just wondering if anyone here has ever tried braising short ribs at anything above 350 F?

[ED BUCHANAN]

Originally Posted by kongfeet

Hi. Saw Mario Batali's braised short rib recipe in his Babo cookbook. It says to braise them at 375 F for 2 hours. I've never braised any meat at such a high temperature for such a short peroid of time (I usually do it at 275 F for 6 hours, and on occasions, I've done a 12 hour braise at 180 F). I'm not dissing him, cuz I think he's a great chef, but am just wondering if anyone here has ever tried braising short ribs at anything above 350 F?

Since I have never braised anything for 12 hours or even close to it. I go his route, Time factor could vary slightly based on size of ribs. I do lamb shanks the same way. The difference between 325 and 350 is not that much. I normaly dont roast anything over 350 but I do braise at that temp if not even higher.

[chefhow]

I follow Chef Eds and Mario's philosophy on this, I usually go 400 for 2 hours with a medium/large sized bone in short rib.

[Blueicus]

When you're braising something in liquid the temperature of the liquid won't vary much whether you're putting it in a 325 or 375 degree oven. As long as you keep the ribs submerged in the liquid it shouldn't be much of a problem.

[mike8913]

the lower and slower you can go is the better. though with braising it's rather pointless to go lower than 300 because you're final product will be similar. With a roast however (pork especially comes to mind) I like to crank my oven to 500 to sear my meat and then drop it to its lowest operating temperature (150 i think) and let it go for 12 hours or more. essentially it's the same principles of sous vide, just backwards and without liquid. Historically, it's probably more accurate to say that sous vide is based off this method rather than vice versa.

[welldonechef]

Originally Posted by kongfeet

Hi. Saw Mario Batali's braised short rib recipe in his Babo cookbook. It says to braise them at 375 F for 2 hours. I've never braised any meat at such a high temperature for such a short peroid of time (I usually do it at 275 F for 6 hours, and on occasions, I've done a 12 hour braise at 180 F). I'm not dissing him, cuz I think he's a great chef, but am just wondering if anyone here has ever tried braising short ribs at anything above 350 F?

You are speaking of beef ribs, right? I cannot picture how good those ribs would be coming out of the oven at 375...

I like to caramelize them, then lower the temp to almost 200 and cook over 5 to 6 hours or more. I find the depth of flavor improves over time.

[ED BUCHANAN]

350-375 cooks and chefs been doing this for years . One has to remember you are cooking in an extremely moist enviorment(not roasting) in most cases the roast or ribs has been subject to high heat on its outer surfaces first then covered in pan in oven, or in some kitchens on top of stove in a pot (therefore the term pot roast.) To cook it 6 to 12 hours to me is a waste of energy and resource.

[welldonechef]

Originally Posted by ED BUCHANAN

350-375 cooks and chefs been doing this for years . One has to remember you are cooking in an extremely moist enviorment(not roasting) in most cases the roast or ribs has been subject to high heat on its outer surfaces first then covered in pan in oven, or in some kitchens on top of stove in a pot (therefore the term pot roast.) To cook it 6 to 12 hours to me is a waste of energy and resource.

I agree that the ribs will be nice and tender after a couple of hours, but for me it is all about building up a flavor profile. My rule is "low and slow." This allows for the gentle breakdown of the collagens in the meat, which in turn release the fat interconnected in the muscle layers slowly, so you are effectively self basting the meat.

It is all about flavor, and the investment of time is not that much, considering you are covering it, putting it into the oven, and practically forgetting about it.

[chefhow]

Originally Posted by welldonechef

I agree that the ribs will be nice and tender after a couple of hours, but for me it is all about building up a flavor profile. My rule is "low and slow." This allows for the gentle breakdown of the collagens in the meat, which in turn release the fat interconnected in the muscle layers slowly, so you are effectively self basting the meat.

It is all about flavor, and the investment of time is not that much, considering you are covering it, putting it into the oven, and practically forgetting about it.

While in theory you may be correct, in practical terms I find that once the muscle structure has broken down there is no need to cook it any further. This is why I spend more time and attention in the sauce than the cooking process. The reduction of the braising liquid into a rich, heady and silky sauce that will use the meat as a carrier is where the art is at. I would rather keep an eye on a pot for 4 hours, occasionally skimming and straining than anything else. Thats just me personally, anyone can cook a short rib, not everyone can make a memorable sauce.

[welldonechef]

Originally Posted by chefhow

While in theory you may be correct, in practical terms I find that once the muscle structure has broken down there is no need to cook it any further. This is why I spend more time and attention in the sauce than the cooking process. The reduction of the braising liquid into a rich, heady and silky sauce that will use the meat as a carrier is where the art is at. I would rather keep an eye on a pot for 4 hours, occasionally skimming and straining than anything else. Thats just me personally, anyone can cook a short rib, not everyone can make a memorable sauce.

I can agree with you on the sauce. It is definitely an art to make a great sauce. What I take issue with is how a person would take more time with the sauce than the star of the dish, the meat. No matter how good your sauce is, if you sell me tasteless, stringy meat, I will be disappointed.

If you combine the two methods, and flawlessly execute them, you will have an ethereal sauce, and a melt-in-your mouth flavor explosion. The upside of this is you will have more gelatin and meat flavor in your braisage than if you just reduce the liquid.

[PeteMcCracken]

As long as there is liquid with the ribs, the temperature of the ribs will never exceed the boiling point of the liquid (probably something very close to 212°F), regardless as to what the oven temperature is (as long as it is higher than the boiling point of the liquid). That is simply a physical fact.

A higher oven temperature "may" result in more vigorous "boiling" but it will not result in a higher product temperature until the liquid is all converted to steam.

Oven temperature does become a factor when the quantity of liquid becomes minimal or when there is no liquid left.

[welldonechef]

Originally Posted by PeteMcCracken

As long as there is liquid with the ribs, the temperature of the ribs will never exceed the boiling point of the liquid (probably something very close to 212°F), regardless as to what the oven temperature is (as long as it is higher than the boiling point of the liquid). That is simply a physical fact.

A higher oven temperature "may" result in more vigorous "boiling" but it will not result in a higher product temperature until the liquid is all converted to steam.

Oven temperature does become a factor when the quantity of liquid becomes minimal or when there is no liquid left.

Don't forget that braising is a combination method though. Yes, you are boiling, but you are also cooking with pressure and steam. What comes into to play is whether you are covering your product or not. If you are covering it, then temperature does play a factor, because you are raising pressure in your cooking vessel. Kind of the same effect as sous-vide.

The reason I go low and slow is because over that period of time, I find that more FLAVOR concentrates in the meat. I am not just going for tenderness, equally important is flavor. I like the intense beef flavor one gets from the slow cooking of the meat.

I liken the effect of time to that of rotisserie. Can one argue that a rotisserie chicken or lamb tastes a lot different than a simple roasted chicken or lamb? Time is the factor here, not just the cooking method.

[chefhow]

Sous Vide and Braising are not even close in technique, meathod or final outcome. The vessels are not even close and pressure isnt a factor in braising. Even if you did cook something in an oven at 150F your oven cycles on and off when temps go above and below certain points but it doesnt give a constant temp, in order for sous vide to properly work you have to maintian a CONSTANT low circulating tempurature during the enitire process. The elements dont cycle they maintain and its isnt done in a dry air process,it has to be done in a oxygen free environment. You can compare braising to retorting before sous vide.

[welldonechef]

Originally Posted by chefhow

Sous Vide and Braising are not even close in technique, meathod or final outcome. The vessels are not even close and pressure isnt a factor in braising. Even if you did cook something in an oven at 150F your oven cycles on and off when temps go above and below certain points but it doesnt give a constant temp, in order for sous vide to properly work you have to maintian a CONSTANT low circulating tempurature during the enitire process. The elements dont cycle they maintain and its isnt done in a dry air process,it has to be done in a oxygen free environment. You can compare braising to retorting before sous vide.

Pressure is a factor, as you are covering your vessel to keep the steam in, thus raising the pressure of the air inside. Thus, cooking your item quicker. Sous vide follows the same principle, except the liquid is contained inside plastic. It is a moist environment that uses steam (from the liquid evaporating) to gently cook the item. In essence, the two share the same combination cooking method.

As for your oven, fine, it cycles, but your vessel is covered, right? The temperature is more or less consistent inside because it is covered, and no heat would escape. This is why it is more efficient to braise in the oven opposed to on the stove top, because you have a greater degree of control over the temperature.

Finally, braising is not a dry air process. It is a combination method: steam and liquid cook the item. Retorting is the same, as well as sous-vide/boil in bag. While they are not EXACTLY the same, the cooking methods are similar.

[ED BUCHANAN]

When we put something in an oven, we are cooking in reality 3 ways 1. By conduction 2,By convection and 3. By radiation this is heat in transit it comes from a hot source and is converted back to heat when it is absorbed by other matter. So I believe even though the braising liquid is 212 at a max and creates a self basting medium the liquid does not cover the meat therefore the temp that oven is set for also cooks the meat. If you put thermometer in the potroast even though the liquid is 212 the internal temp will be much higher.