What's our responsibility?

[Nick.Shu]

but my rant doesnt finish there.

If someone makes it known that they have special requirements, then it should be dealt with in a professional and ethical manner.

For a chef or floorstaff or whatever to alter the existing to what the customer wants, that item is contaminated - no ifs or buts. There is absolutely no excuse for doing that.

After all that is why we reset plates if something needs recooking, and it also serves to protect you from unforseen circumstances.

[shroomgirl]

Mo. chef's collaborative has done 2 series of 6 dinners each had a vegetarian option....one was a total vegan meal...check out www.saucecafe.com under chef's collaborative's archives...the Harvest restaurant meal was vegan. Pretty cool to see high end creative restaurants do a 4 course vegetarian meal....a stretch for some of the guys others made amazing dishes.

[Pete]

I think we are getting a little sidetracked here in this discussion. The question is not, 'do restarants offer vegetarian items?' it is whether a restaurant should notify its guests about what is in their food (ie. should menus be full of warning labels and nutrional information). And the second question raised is, do we have a responsibility to try an eliminate as many potentially harmful items as possible from our food as a whole?

[CompassRose]

I don't think that chefs should be eliminating things from their items (just as I think it's going a bit far to have "peanut free" schools). People with allergies -- AND people with special dietary requirements -- do need to live in the real world, after all. We can't all go through life wrapped in a tender, legislated cocoon of contaminant-free organic cotton.

All I ask for is that restaurants make it EASY for me to get the information that I want, so that I can make my own choices. And I think that includes nutrition information, and any possibly dubious items: gelatin, alcohol, nuts and the like.

Is it a matter of "trade secrecy" that's making so many of the pros speaking to this issue sound so defensive?

[marmalady]

Thanks, Pete, for keeping on track!

How can we 'remove harmful items' when we can't all agree on what those are?! I guess in items where I had an equivalent substitute - i.e. subbing out veg oil for peanut oil, I probably would opt not to use the peanut oil at all. But things like nuts (which are pretty much incorporated into a menu description, i.e. 'walnut brownie') I would leave up to the 'customer beware' thinking. After all, most of our customers can at least read! Unless the nuts or nut paste were in a sauce or something that wasn't in the description.

As for the alcohol, I basically agree with the 'customer beware' approach, as most things with alcohol in 'em are labelled on the menu; but there are sauces, i.e. berre blanc, for example where, if you don't know how the sauce is made, you don't know there's alcohol in it. I'm bringing this up, because I used to work at a drug/alcohol rehab center, and dated one of the counselors, who was a recovering alcoholic. They're so stringent in telling folks they can't have things like even mouthwash, at least until their recovery is more or less under control. I know we can't (and shouldn't) adjust dishes to accommodate the minority, it just seems that to be fair, they should be alerted to the fact that there's alcohol in the sauce.

As for the gelatin, Pete, I think most vegetarians are aware of the fact that it's made from feetsies of critters - other than that gruesome little fact, I don't think there's a health concern.

Re vegetarian/vegan dishes, I've seen a lot of restaurants put a star or asterisk on 'veggie' items on the menu. Fairly inobstructive, and it works.

Good discussion, all!

[Pete]

I do not have any "secrets" in my cooking. I will be glad to tell anyone what is in anything and I train my servers to do so also. I object to "labeling" and nutrional information on my menus, because it looks tacky. I am not a grocery store item, pre-packaged and put on a shelf, and I have no wish to be considered in the same catagory (pompous and self-righteous, yes). Besides, there are legal considerations. If I put that one dish contains X amount of sodium and the cook uses a heavier hand than normal, then I could Legally be sued for misinformation.

[kuan]

Most people with allergies carry epi-kits just in case they ingest the wrong food items. It'll totally ruin a nice evening, but better to live to enjoy another day than not to live at all eh? In light of this, it's even more important that we either have well trained staff who can answer these questions. It's more important that we have an honest kitchen staff with integrity. More and more these days I'll ask a question about something and the answer will be something made up. For example, the other Sunday I went to a store to purchase a piece of furniture advertised at $99. I was told that it was a new item and for some reason it hadn't come in yet, and that when it came in I would receive a call. Two days later I went back and was told that the advertised item was a clearance item and not available anymore. You can imagine my ire, not that the item was no longer available, but that I was told a story. Anyway back to the point. We just have to be honest about it. If you know, tell them. If you don't know, say you don't know and that'll be the end of it. Just don't order the item. Now that, is being responsible.

Kuan

[kuan]

We're also not subject to labelling laws. By law, we're not required to provide nutritional labels for each and every item we create. We ARE, however, bound by our word when we claim something as "heart healthy" or "vegetarian," whatever that means.

Compassrose asked whether it was a matter of trade secrecy. I must admit, there really aren't any secrets in cooking. Those who tell you that there are secrets have deep rooted self-esteem problems. There are trademark and copyright issues, but those fall in the realm of business, not cooking. We like to think that cooking is an art above all of that!

Kuan

[DaveB]

A major difficulty with being proactive in this area is the wild variety of things that people are allergic to. Taking my small universe as a case in point:

Garlic: My wife and her brother suffer extreme gastric upset (vomiting, diarrhea) within an hour of eating garlic.

Tomatoes: My wife's step brother breaks out in hives and has trouble breathing if he comes near tomatoes.

Bananas: My two brothers are both quite allergic to bananas in any form.

Sesame: An old friend eats peanuts with gusto, but has been hospitalized in anaphylactic shock after trivial contact with sesame seeds. He finds halvah lethal.

If you were being proactive, which of the above would you warn customers about? I expect only the Sesame (under "Nuts"). But if you didn't actually mention sesame, you still might have Ron dying in your dining room. A liitle garlic in the dressing? A touch of tomato paste in the stew? I think not.

Also, people with nut allergies may be in trouble if you cook anything with nuts as they can react to tiny amounts of residue and oil on tools or utensils.

[kuan]

True allergies only apply to proteins. These proteins are normally found in eggs, shellfish, fish, soy, wheat, dairy, peanuts, and other nuts. Most other "allergies" are simply intolerances. For example, the green center part in garlic might cause indigestion in some people. The reason that some "other" nuts may kill some people is because of trace amounts of peanuts/peanut oil in the product. This is due to the processing environment. Some oils processing plants also process peanut oil, and some nut processing facilities also process peanuts. There's no reaction, just cross-contamination.

Kuan

[Peachcreek]

I run into this situation often enough. What is now my standard answer when someone asks about a specific ingredient I ask is it a food allergy or a preference. The reason being the possibility of trace amounts of the allergen. If someone is horribly allergic, then just removing the allergen, in my estimation also includes anything it touched. If someone just has a preference, then just not putting in the ingredient is usually enough. and not worring about a trace amount or by-product. I take food allergies VERY seriously. A good waitstaff will be able to talk knowlegeably about the food and how it is prepared and know how to find the right answer about specific ingredients. But also I have found that customers with serious allergies know to ask ALL the questions. Lets face it- their lives might depend on it.

[CompassRose]

But what counts as a "preference"? What about religious dietary restrictions, for instance -- remembering the recent McDonald's french fry lawsuit?

[shroomgirl]

It seems clear, one you're dead or on the way to the hospital the other you are not

[chiffonade]

One of the caveats of dining out is that you don't have control over what goes into your meal. One does not dine out frequently if one expects to 1) eat healthy, or 2) lose weight. Meals out are a treat for those with dietary restrictions and health concerns.

One almost expects to sin when eating a restaurant meal. It's accepted that it's probably not the lowest-cal thing you'll eat this week. If a customer wants information on a specific meal because they are forced by circumstances to dine out frequently, he or she can either ask the waitperson to go to the kitchen and get a list of major ingredients including oils or fats; or, alternatively, if it's not busy, ask the chef to come out and explain the cooking method. The only thing the house owes the customer is an accurate representation of what's on his or her plate when the house is asked to surrender such an explanation.

There is also providing the dreaded "light" section of the menu which never looks very appealing to me.

[CompassRose]

Sorry, chiffonade, but....

****sob****