Post 9-11, post dot com, question

[ShawtyCat]

3. I have known many Hispanic Chefs and Sous Chefs, and I found that often times according to them, they were reluctant to take on that first leadership role because they were afraid of what their friends (who often times are not only co-workers, but neighbors) would think of them. They were afraid that there friends would consider them sellouts, and that they would not be given any respect.

Pete, how right you are! I am not mexican but as close to it as you can get being from the West Indies or Lating America as you americans keep telling me Im from. And let me tell you that when I got a higher paying job I was treated as if I had suddenly joined the enemy camp. You start to hear alot of people saying "So you think you are better than us, huh?" It is very hard to ignore that when you are living close to or with these people. So you tend to stay where you are sometimes.


2. Hispanics do not move up the ranks as quickly as "white" Americans because, first off most Hispanics don't have culinary degrees, and secondly not only do they have to learn the trade, they are usually trying to learn English at the same time. An issue that slows down their progress.

This is also true. I don't speak spanish but I do remember when I first came to this country that it was hard understanding the american version of the english language. I spoke the Queens English and would pronounce things differently or spell things differently and noone would understand what I was saying. Like saying "queue" instead of "line" or "con-trov-er-see" instead of "contro-versey" and people would laugh. I had to relearn english in order to understand and be understood. I still slip up sometimes these days but at my age it doesn't bother me to be laughed at anymore. I know what I'm saying. I think I have an easier time speaking to the latin guys I work with and still believe that americans maybe aren't really speaking english.

[panini]

I'm glad to see this post has taken a litte turn. I was also having a problem with the beginning. I'm having a difficult time understanding LEGAL. It seems, that I'm hearing if you're not a citizen ,your not legal. I'm pretty sure you don't have to be a citizen and have 2.3 kids and a chevy to work in this country.On the other hand A I-9 does not make someone legal. I get them, make a copy of them, file them and don't ask questions.)it's not my business) even though our Gov't wants me to do their job and scrutinize the photo,ink etc. and if I make a mistake impose a heafty fine on me.
Shawty Cat,
We can't divide this as immigrants and Americans. I sure a study will show us that there are very few people with AMERICAN roots working anywhere. I'm the son of a WOP. As any immigrant of any country, going or coming,the effort is huge to learn the language and be employed. This is a country of immigrants. The sad part of the whole issue is that our elected politicians have let the system get so out of control, we are seeing changes. Some changes for the good and some for worse. If you think you see some changes now, just wait, there are minority groups who are electing leaders, forming communities, changing laws, etc.( personally I admire this and am all for it) I think its time to have some leadership with influence from people that know what its like not to be given everything on a plate.
Nick Shu.
A lot of times a European is put in the drivers seat in the US. I really feel that the reason for this is that in most European Countries,The Culinary Arts are a recognized profession that requires training and certification.
Pete
I think it was you who mentioned that we hire the hispanics cheap. generalizing, the young generation in the US entering the work place choose not to wash dishes for 6.50-7.00 hr. If the Hispanics choose to take this job it does not mean you're hiring them cheap. thats what the job pays. Your point about people doing lower,mid-level jobs and people being content is a great point! A lot of the negetivity and discriminating facts here are about not being able to move up and attain the chefs job. The fact is that there is approx. only one management jobs for every 10 or so workers. Its the same in any field.
If anyone has chosen to read this lengthy rant, thank you for your time. Those opinions expressed here are from one individual and do not represent the views of the station.

[SlaveGirl]

I certainly read it. I'm happy with the way this thread is going, too. It's getting towards what I was wanting to know, I think. I wasn't very sure what it was when I started.

I agree, the comments on people being "content" are great, something I didn't think about. I'm very interested in the "climbing the ladder equalling selling out issue." It definitely wasn't something I knew about.


SG

[ShawtyCat]

You know, Ive known college grads who left college after earning their bachelors degree and applied to a law firm. They were getting paid $6 - 7 and hour entry level just like the dishwashers you see in restaurants. They could never understand why I was getting paid $20 and hour as a temp and I had no degree. I had experience but to be a permanent worker I needed the degree. Maybe this entry level rate is the norm with all industries and some servers choose to work temp at restaurants to pick up a little cash to pay off college expenses. Most of the time, people from my country (my mom for example) will try to find a paying job with very little questions asked. Sometimes factories, restaurants or even some temp agencies until their working papers come through.

Pan

I am legal. I have my green card and I overpay my taxes every year but if I wanted a government job with pension etc. I would need to be a citizen. I aspired to be part of the NYPD once. Most people thought it was funny since I'm the same height as Hooks and sound exactly like her. Im just cuter!

In General:

The reasons that most immigrants find it hard to get permanent resident status is that they would have to employ a lawyer in order to understand the law. You will have to pay 5 grand a person sometimes. My aunt paid $20 grand to get her family permanent resident status. And because of some filers "illegal" status it may take years in order to receive your papers. So sometimes it is just easier to stay where you are, work, and send money to your family. Many people are being taken advantage of by the lawyers too. They will call and ask for money and not explain exactly what is going on or what the status of their applications. Our cook finally got his papers after a 7 year wait and thousands. And his kids are citizens. So whoever told you that it is easier if your kids are citizens told you a big fib.

The easiest way to get "legal" is to file in your country before you come to the US.

SG

When I was doing office work I had no inclination of climbing the ladder. Just did not seem worth the stress and long hours. Working at the restaurant I do not even realize how much time has gone by until I actually see that dawn is breaking and my kids are asleep in one of the booths. In the restaurant I am one of the "climbing the ladder" types because food is my passion. It is all a matter of what it is you really want to do in order to get someones drive going. For some it might be owning a piece of land back home (my uncle) for others, opening a business back home (my mom). I want to eventually have a kitchen to my own. In this country. Nothing big and fancy just comfort food. My hubby is great with the FOH and I prefer to be behind the scenes with my beloved food. Then I will revert to being a "contented" person who doesn't want to go any further.

Sorry for going on and on.

Jodi

[ShawtyCat]

SG.

The reason most of the chef's, at least in my country, are white is that no one else can afford to open a restaurant. If you are not a citizen of our country it is much easier to buy land and property for some reason. And most properties go for 1/4 to 1 million. The other reason is that you need so many certifications after you name that it is impossible for a local who never left to get hired.

The locals barely make enough to go grocery shopping so unless a whole family pooled money there is just no way to afford that type of money to buy a restaurant. Heck, we can't afford the land we have our own houses on. And that is the main reason many people leave, work any job they can find in the US and send money home. To pay off the land for our homes since the government can claim the land and move your house somewhere else in order to sell it to someone else.

And if you are a local who owns a business your taxes are higher and there are many more strings attached. Some people go back married to a citizen of another country (hope that phrase is ok to use) and act as a silent partner just to get away from all the red tape. If you didn't notice all the restaurants are owned by people from other countries.

Hope this answers the questions your observation brought up.

Jodi

[panini]

Jodi,
I think I understand perfectly what you are saying. But I don't think it has been any different for generations and I don't think its different on the flip side for those going to a different country.
I'm not talking about the professional transfering but the family who moves for what they think could be a better life for themselves. I also think the the bottom line is that thing are getting much better.
It is not easy becoming legal, I have been to INS with people who work with us and taken our number at 1am and waited till 4:30pm only to find out that we need to come back the following day,all the time worring that we have not got things in order and risk deportation.
I understand the thing with lawyers, but here it seems as though its like a white on white or a black on black crime. The hispanic attourneys are taking advantage of their own. The cyotes have been a part of our culture here for years.
ps I don't want to say I'm one side or the other here for I feel there is no sides. I support anything that will support the family unit.

[ShawtyCat]

I understand clearly what you are saying Pan. It is the same everywhere. I dont speak for everyone, these are just my reasons and everyone has his/her own point of view. For me it was the opposite way around. I took office jobs because I am extremely good at them, I don't like them but it was work.

It defiantely was the same for my family when we immigrated as it was for previous generations of immigrants to this country. I see you understand the INS as well They actually have it now that you can download the forms online. And I know all about the lawyers who like to take advantage of their own. Some come here thinking that, well we can't trust the new govt yet so lets find someone from home to help. Not the way to go all the time. Those are the ones who will take the most advantage of you. Remember my aunt's 20 grand!

You can actually say that there are many many many reasons why some people do not move up the ladder at restaurants.

1. I don't want the headache of new responsibility
2. Oh Lord! Not more hours
3. I like my position and this aspect of the kitchen is my passion
4. I prefer to socialize with the customers than cook
5. It's soothing bussing tables. Its a nice time to think about stuff (I actually do this when Im bussing. I find myself meditating. )
6. I can't take anything higher until I get my papers
7. I have to pay child support and the less I make the better. (ive actually heard that one)
8. Im just here to pay my bills
9. Im still learning the language
10. Too much time away from my kids and Im a single parent.
11. I don't have enough experience yet.

The list could go on. It is the same for every industry I believe.

[marmalady]

Question first - What is the difference between 'legal resident' status and appying for/getting US citizenship? Do you have to get the resident status first? Sorry for being such a dummy!

Observation - I think the discussion here applies to all areas of the labor force; immigrants are working at jobs that citizens don't want anymore. In the last 3 1/2 years, we've had to remodel our home to provide modifications for my son, and just last year, put in new windows and resided the whole house. With all of the contractors we dealt with, the boss was American, the workers were mostly Hispanic. They're hard workers - most of them! - and will work for a salary that Americans in the labor force won't even look at or consider. Time after time we had contractors tell us that they don't have the money to pay someone $20-25/hr to paint a room, yet that's what American workers seem to expect for labor - plus benefits. Perhaps our country's history with the unions has something to do with that.

I admire our immigrants. As Shawty said, they come here for a better life; some are disillusioned, but most I've talked with feel they have a better life here - either through standard of living or political situations. A lot of them share expenses in apartments to be able to send money home to their families, to improve their lives, and eventually join up with them here. Before we bought our son's conversion van, we had to use an ambulance transport service to get Matt from home to his outpatient therapy; most of the drivers were Hispanic - Puerto Rico, Costa Rica and Honduras were the three main countries I remember. As we had a long drive to the clinic, we had great opportunities to chat and get to know each other. I absolutely admire these men in their dedication to their families.

America is an immigrant country; all of us can trace our roots to some other part of the world - even Native Americans emigrated here, according to some, from across the Bering Strait or up from South America. Now - my only beef with immigrants is - I wish they'd make more effort to learn our language!!!! It's so frustrating to deal with someone on whatever level - in the restaurant kitchen, the women who clean my house, the folks at the convenience store - who can't understand the language.

Sorry for my somewhat rambling thoughts here - it's early, and I haven't had my second cuppa yet!!!

[Matthew357]

Hrrm...ok...let me preface this by saying first and foremost that I do think everyone should have an opportunity to achieve what they want. Unfortunately these kinds of issues can become very convoluted.

When I was in highschool I was on the debate team. One year the topic for the year was immigration and what the US should do as far as it's US policy. As part of this I did tons (Thousands of pages of docummented information) of research on the subject of immigration and the US. The US has a massive problem with illegal immigrants. Hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants enter the country each year causing massive issues with the infrastructure of the governmental system. For instance, many of the public services in cities and counties in the southwestern part of the united states are stressed to the max financially. School systems don't have enough teachers or classrooms to handle the influx of new students caused by illegal immigrants.

On the other hand, illegal immigrants are one of the reasons why the American economy is still so strong. They take a lot of the jobs others don't want for wages that others won't accept.

To be honest the best solution I ever saw proposed was a three to five year moratorium on immigration. With special allowances being made for certain kinds of immigration. This would give the INS time to completely overhaul itself as well as allow it to get a handle on immigration and illegal immigration.

My viewpoint is if you want to come to America, please do, we are glad to have you, BUT (and this is a big BUT) do it LEGALLY.

So, with that out of the way on to the subject at hand. Every restaurant I have worked in has had a fair amount of Hispanic workers, some were very loyal and hard working, others were completely worthless slackers. I think that drawing lines of "Mexicans are good workers" or "Mexicans are horrible workers" would be incredibly off.

Why they don't advance much, well, there are lots of reasons but I think the biggest ones are the issues with the language barrier as well as the issues with legality.

Matt

[ShawtyCat]

Marmalady,

To roughly answer your immigration question:

Before applying for citizenship

1. You have to be a permanent resident continuosly for 5 years
2. You cannot leave the US for more than 6 months without having to explain why you were gone so long
3. You have to have a good moral character (no arrests, no prostitution, pay your taxes)
4. You have to be able to read and write english
5. You have to know American History
6. Gotta have a SS#

You can find more comprehensive information at the INS website:

http://www.ins.gov/graphics/services/natz/index.htm for Naturalization Eligibility and Filing Information

http://www.ins.gov/graphics/services...ency/index.htm for Permanant Resident Eligibility and Filing Information

Hope this answers your question.

Jodi

PS

FYI : A Permanent Resident is also known as a LEGAL Alien.

And the thing that most immigrants find stressful is that our relatives back home think we are rich. It seems that every year the wish list gets longer and longer. I makes you want to send them an official looking document stating that Santa Claus is dead. They don't understand the we don't make that much money. See in Barbados the exchange rate is $1 USD is $2 BDS. So take $50 grand to Barbados and you have $100 grand.

[Nick.Shu]

i understand your point, panini.

As a given, well yes, the european system is well regarded. A tradition of excellence must come from somewhere, training or whatnot.

My point being, is that reputations for certain fields do not get conferred for frivolous reasons.

However, there is a inherent danger that assumptions about cultural backgrounds can back fire for either positive or negative reasons and that the question given for this post regards that.

Also, im not 100 percent sure, but most countries seem to base commercial cookery around the trade and guilds system. To be quite honest, im actually surprised that commercial cookery is a university degree course. (of course that is not necessarily a bad thing!)

Also in Aus, as probably the rest of the world, certification and qualifications of chefs are standardised into the Australian Qualifications Framework. And yes, im quite well qualified for the job.

[marmalady]

Thanks, Shawty, for clearing that up!!!!

[amw5g]

Originally posted by marmalady

America is an immigrant country; all of us can trace our roots to some other part of the world - even Native Americans emigrated here, according to some, from across the Bering Strait or up from South America. Now - my only beef with immigrants is - I wish they'd make more effort to learn our language!!!! It's so frustrating to deal with someone on whatever level - in the restaurant kitchen, the women who clean my house, the folks at the convenience store - who can't understand the language.

Actually, the US has no official language. While English is certainly de facto, Spanish is being mandated for instructional and directional signs in many areas, particularly those in the south and southwest. There will never be an official US language (my take on the legal isues surrounding the topic) and you'll probably see increases in signage quite rapidly as the labor force continues to pull in hispanic/latino workers.
I certainly understand your point about miscommunication and have been up against the same situation in my various walks of life. But from a socially responsible standpoint (rarely the popular one), it behooves Anglophones just as much to learn spanish as it does immigrants to learn English.
-Andrew

[culinarian247]

The entire issue of race and equality have been stretched, drawn out, folded, spindled and mutilated. Rather than reprint the "I have a dream" speech I will just say that it's not right that some emplyess promote based on unfair criteria. It is also equally unfair to select an employee just to have a mix of races in their kitchen. I personally wouldn't give a **** if the applicant that walked into the interview had purple skin and a tail growing out of their a$$es. If they can handle the heat they get the job. Why no one else can feel this way I don't know. And get this: I get faced with more discrimination from members of my own race than from anyone else. Too much emphasis is placed upon outer appearance rather than skills and job performance.