Choux pastry techniques

[suigeneris]

Choux Pastry Techniques Needed


First of all, I am new to this forum. My name is Louie Elizabeth from the Bay Area in California. I love to cook and bake whenever I need recharging. I am hoping I can strike some luck with a knowledgeable group of professional pastry chefs in this forum.

My issue at hand is how to properly make napoleons or cream puffs by using choux pastry.
I worked with 2 recipes and both were flops. Basically, I cut the butter in pieces and put them in water to boil. At boiling point I take it out of the fire and I add in the flour stirring vigorously until mixture pulls away from the side of pan. Then I added eggs one at a time.

First recipe:

1 ½ c (12 oz) water
150 grams(5 oz) butter
1 ¼ c (5 oz) all purpose flour
5 eggs

At 350 degrees Fahrenheit


Second recipe:

1 c (250 ml) water
1 c (250 ml) milk
1 tsp salt
1 tsp sugar
7/8 c ( 200 grams) butter
1 2/3 c (235 g) all purpose flour
6 -7 large eggs

At 420 degrees Fahrenheit for first 10 minutes. Then lower to 350 degrees.

Question: Author of first recipe mentions that choux pastry” should not contain any sugar, allowing the natural sugars in the flour to brown the crust: this enables the choux to be baked for a lengthier time so that the internal mixture dries out. If the internal structure does not dry out, the steam coming from it will soften the outer crust and then the whole choux pastry will be soggy and moist. Another way of preventing this is to cut or punch a hole in the baked product as soon as they are removed from the oven to allow the steam to escape.”

Interesting recipe #2 has sugar (plus milk) …this is a very tasty dough, incredible I must say...

The result was it did not rise and were soggy and uncooked. Though last December for a Christmas dinner I did a choux pastry based dessert which is a Gateau Saint Honore and it was successful. I was totally confident making the choux considering I haven’t done it in over 30 years…I as a teen-ager I made cream puffs out of choux pastry and never had issues, now time has passed and I’m 45 years old and ……(this is what time has done)…..I would greatly appreciate any feedback, thoughts and techniques …maybe I can regain the grandeur of my idle youth today as a weekend baker.

Thanks for your help!

Louie Elizabeth

[chefpeon]

First of all, a correction....
Napoleons are made with puff pastry, not choux.

Pastry chefs will discuss the topic of choux for all eternity if you give 'em a chance. Choux can be tricky, and everyone swears by their own method. I say, "If it works for you, great".

Everyone also has their own theories about why a recipe does or does not work also. A lot of the theories are sound but can cause a LOT of confusion also.

I have tried dozens of choux recipes. I finally settled on the one I really like,
by Pichet Ong.

There are some principles, that if applied, will help almost any choux recipe be successful.

They are:
1. After you add your flour...DON'T take it off the heat! Keep cooking it and stirring it for about 4 to 5 minutes....this will let a lot of the moisture evaporate off, so you can incorporate the most eggs possible.

2. The number of eggs you add to any choux recipe are ALWAYS variable.
No matter what the recipe says. If it says 4-5 eggs, it could end up being 3 or maybe 6 or 7. It depends on the size of eggs you are using, what kind of flour you are using and how long you have cooked your flour ball.

3. You have to know what the right consistency of a choux dough should look like. It is very easy to misjudge how many eggs you should be adding. Just one egg to many will make a dough slack and your puffs will be flat and soft. Too few eggs, and you'll get a tough choux that won't rise enough for lack of steam.
The best way to describe proper choux consistency is that the dough should be glossy, not dull. It should be stiff enough that it does not lose it's shape or flatten out on the pan when piped. If you're not sure of your consistency, do a "test pipe" and see what happens. Of course, you need to do this before you think you've added "too many" eggs.

I've tried recipes with milk, milk and water, just water, no sugar, some sugar......they all work. Some taste better. Some taste just bland. Some have thick shells, some have light shells.....my final decision on my favorite choux recipe was just flavorful enough and light and crisp enough that I decided they were perfect.

People will also discuss the oven temp thing forever too. Some say to start with high heat. Some just bake them at the same heat for the entire baking time. It basically comes down to your preference, what you think works, and what kind of oven you're dealing with. Personally, I bake my
choux at 375 the whole time. It works great. A note, if you do have sugar in your recipe, the choux will brown faster, and the initial high heat is not a good idea in this instance.

Another problem many people have is underbaking their choux. Most people will pull them too early and they collapse. The choux must be an even dark golden brown. No light sides. If your sides are lighter than the tops you're guaranteed a collapsing problem. Don't overcrowd your pans, to allow the choux to expand. Some people believe in the trick of putting a little slit in the bottom of the choux when it's nearly done to let more steam escape to dry out the insides. Personally I don't do it, but since you're going to have to put a hole in the bottom ANYWAY to fill it, it's sure not going to hurt. Personally I've never found that my choux is any different whether I vent it or not.

Hope this helps.

Cheers......Annie

[panini]

As Annie says, it's almost a personal thing. It's also regional. Throughout countries like France, some like the harder shell, some with the milk, a softer mouth feel. It's hardly anything to be afraid to make. I personally feel it's more about the drying then anything else.
You should cook the roux to dry.(evaporate)
Paddle the hot paste when cooling to dry. (evaporate)
Get em to hold up and bake em dry inside. (evaporate)
The only thing I ever recommend is a pinch of salt. You can also do a physical test for consistancy which is a little quicker then a bake test. Once you feel your choux is there, simply run the handle of a wooden spoon slowly through the choux forming a trough, the choux should be closing up around 2 inches behing the handle. Trough closes right away,to soft. Trough closes 3 inches behind, to tough.
You will need puff and choux for Saint Honoré
pan

[cakerookie]

What about blind baking or poking holes in the bottom for it to vent? Don't know either just asking?

Rgds Rook

[chefpeon]

What about blind baking or poking holes in the bottom for it to vent? Don't know either just asking?

Uh, what are you referring to there, Rook?

[cakerookie]

Originally Posted by chefpeon

Uh, what are you referring to there, Rook?

To be honest after I re read the posts I got no idea where I am coming from
been a long day.

Ignore that post like its not there. Sorry.

Rgds Rook...

[Clove]

The method that works for me is to swirl my finger in the batter. When I lift it out the batter should form a peak. As I point my finger to the ceiling the very tip of the peak should fall over - if it stands straight up you need more eggs.

[panini]

Clove,
Haven't heard that one yet. I'll try it. Hope noone mistakes if for an offering to the choux god
This formula is so overrated in the industry. A peasant item taken way to serious. Heck, had to make it for certification.
pan

Rook,
I think for CMPC you have to do it blindfolded

[suigeneris]

Thanks to all, specially Annie, who painstakinly detailed the process. I can't wait for the weekend to try again. But I wanted to ask one more question....why some recipes require you to beat in the eggs with an electric mixer?....but yes, by hand, I can easily mix the choux till it's "proper" consistency...and I did take note from everyone who has pitched in all their personal techniques. Everyone's helpful...everyone's great! but now it up to me ..... ...all i can say, i can't wait to bake.....i'll keep everyone posted on the results.

[chefpeon]

You can mix in the eggs by hand, since you don't have to worry about doing any creaming or such.
It's just that a mixer is easier.

And we PC's who suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome.......can't do it without a mixer. My wrists and hands are kinda toast these days.

[Erik]

Originally Posted by panini

,
I think for CMPC you have to do it blindfolded

Pan,
I just double-checked, and they have actually switched to blind-folded and hanging from the ceiling!

[DanBrown]

I really got into this one while I was in school. I found that Rose Levy Berenbaum's food processor method was the easiest and had the most consistent results....

Pate a choux
Pepin – Complete techniques

Yield: 14-16 Éclairs
1 Cup Water
½ stick Butter
¼ tsp salt
1 Cup flour
4 eggs
1.Bring salt, water, and butter to a boil
2.Add flour all at once and mix with a wooden spatula off heat
3.Place mixture on low flame and dry for one or two minutes, stirring constantly until it is soft and doesn’t stick to your hands this is called the panade
4.Remove from pan and let cool for five to fifteen minutes (remove from pan to avoid having dried crust in pan mixing into dough)
5.Beat eggs into dough one at a time, smoothing completely between each egg.
6.Dough should be as thick and heavy as mayonnaise
7.Coat a cookie sheet with butter and flour (light uniform layer, excess knocked off)
8.Brush piped shapes with egg wash (1 egg), the let them dry for 20 minutes before baking to ensure that they’ll turn golden, push down tails with pastry brush, or fix with a finger dipped in water
9.375º for 35 minutes, turn off heat and open oven door halfway for thirty minutes to avoid falling and let steam escape

Choux paste
Le Cordon Bleu Dessert techniques

1 ½ Cups flour
1 tsp salt
½ Cup Butter
1 Cup water or ½ Cup water and ½ Cup milk
4 eggs beaten

Strongly advises heating the liquid with butter slowly until the butter is melted to avoid moisture loss and losing proper proportions in the dough

Also advises cooling for fifteen minutes to avoid cooking the eggs, also completes the task in the 2 quart pot, which Pepin advises against.

Cook times vary with size of choux
Small items 425º for entire baking time
Larger items 425º for 10 minutes, then 375º for an additional 25 minutes, until pastry is crisp and golden
It also suggests eggwash, using a fork to push down tails, and (Can’t make up it’s mind?) cooking @ 425º for 10 minutes followed by 350º for 5-15 minutes depending on size.


Rose Levy Beranbaum

•Sifting flour helps with ease of incorporation (post measurement)
•Water makes a lighter puff due to coagulation with milk
•Ensure correct fluid by not evaporation water, and measuring the full amount of eggs
•Spraying or brushing the sheets helps the puffs rise with steam
•Early in baking, don’t open the oven door, to avoid cracking, but do open it later to encourage drying
•Retouches dipping fingers in water to shape dough after piping
Increase in size is roughly 2-3 times by height, and 1/3 growth in length

Classic Choux Cream Puff Pastry
Yield : 23.5 oz/666 grams dough
4 dozen puffs (1½”), 16 5”x1¾” Éclairs, or 20 swans
400º for 30 minutes, plus 1 hour forty minutes with the oven off
Ingredient Volume Ounces Grams
Water 1 Cup 8.3 236
Unsalted butter 8 Tablespoons 4 113
Sugar 1 teaspoon * 4
Salt ½ teaspoon * 3
Bleached AP Flour 1 cup (dip and sweep) 5 142
5 large eggs 1 Cup 8.75 250


Beginning is the same as every other recipe
Food processor method for adding eggs
Pour flour and water mix into a food processor with the tube open so steam can escape. Let it run for fifteen seconds to cool slightly, then pour in all the eggs at once and process for another 30 seconds.
Cordon Rose Cream Puff Pastry
Yield : 4 dozen puffs (2”x 1¾”), 16 5”x1¾” Éclairs
425º for 25-35 minutes plus 1 hour forty minutes with the oven off

Ingredient Volume Ounces Grams
Water 1 Cup 8.3 236
Unsalted butter 8 Tablespoons 4 113
Sugar 1 teaspoon * 4
Salt ½ teaspoon * 3
Bread flour
Or
Unbleached AP Flour 1 cup minus 1 ½ Tablespoons
1 Cup (dip and sweep) 5 142
3 large eggs + 3 egg whites 1 Cup 8.5 240

2373-pate a Chou Ordinaire
Escoffier

1 pint water
8 ounces butter
1/3 ounce salt
1 ounce sugar
16 eggs
1 TBSP Orange Flower water

Put the water, butter, salt and sugar into a saucepan and boil. When the mixture boils and rises, take off the fire, add the flour and mix. Return the saucepan to a moderate fire and stir the paste until it ceases to stick to the spoon, and the butter begins to ooze slightly.
Take the saucepan off the fire; add the eggs, two at a time, taking care to mix them thoroughly with all of the paste before adding the successive ones. When all the eggs have been blended, finish the paste with orange flower water.

Recipe courtesy Alton Brown
Yield: 4 dozen bite-size cream puffs or eclair shells
1 cup water
3/4 stick butter (6 tablespoons)
1 tablespoon sugar plus 1/8 teaspoon salt (for sweet)
1 teaspoon salt (for savory)
1 cup flour
1 cup eggs, about 4 large eggs and 2 whites
Preheat oven to 425 degrees F.
Boil water, butter, and salt or sugar. Add flour and remove from heat. Work mixture together and return to heat. Continue working the mixture until all flour is incorporated and dough forms a ball. Transfer mixture into bowl of a standing mixer and let cool for 3 or 4 minutes. With mixer on stir or lowest speed add eggs, 1 at a time, making sure the first egg is completely incorporated before continuing. Once all eggs have been added and the mixture is smooth put dough into piping bag fitted with a round tip. Pipe immediately into golfball-size shapes, 2 inches apart onto parchment lined sheet pans. Cook for 10 minutes, then turn the oven down to 350 degrees F and bake for 10 more minutes or until golden brown. Once they are removed from the oven pierce with a paring knife immediately to release steam.
Recipe courtesy of Peggy Cullen
Yield: 40 to 45 cream puffs

6 tablespoons (3 ounces) unsalted butter
3/4 cup water
1 cup all purpose flour
1/8 teaspoon salt
1 teaspoon sugar
4 eggs
Preheat oven to 450 degrees. In 2 quart pot, combine the butter and water. On a piece of wax or parchment paper, sift together the flour, salt and sugar. Bring the water and butter to a rolling boil, remove from heat and dump the flour mixture in all at once. Stir with a wooden spoon or paddle to incorporate.
Return the saucepot to high heat and cook, stirring, for about one minute. The mixture will form a ball and coat the pan with a thin film.
Transfer the mixture to a mixing bowl or standing mixer equipped with the paddle attachment. Mix the dough for a minute or so, on low speed, to release some of the heat. Add the eggs, one at a time, completely incorporating each one before adding the next. Beat until the dough gets thick and ribbony.
Fit a pastry bag with a round #5 tip and fill with the warm dough. Line a heavy cookie sheet with parchment paper and anchor it to the tray with a little dab of the dough at each corner. Pipe about forty to forty five 1 1/2-inch mounds about 2 inches apart on a cookie sheet lined with parchment paper.
Bake for 10 to 15 minutes, until golden and puffed. Reduce heat to 350 degrees and bake for another 10 minutes or until they are golden brown and there are no droplets of moisture in the crevices. Turn off oven and leave the choux to dry for another 10 minutes. Use when cool, or freeze, wrapped in a plastic bag, for 2-3 months.

If my incomplete bibliography is a problem, PM me and I'll get you the details.

Dan

PS - the restaurant is finally over, thank God it's time for a new project!

[chefpeon]

As I said in my previous post, everybody has their "tricks" and some of them even contradict each other.

I must say that I've NEVER bothered to cool my flour ball mixture for as long as 15 minutes before adding the eggs. Sheeeeesh.....I don't have time for that!

When I was in school, we even learned the "cheatin'" way of using baker's ammonia......nasty stuff! I'd never use it again. Of course I think the only reason we HAD baker's ammonia in the classroom was so the Chef could say to each new student, "Hey! Have you ever smelled chinese sugar?" And the student would say, "No...." And he'd say, "Here smell it!" And he'd open the bucket and you could practically see the new student almost fly straight back across the room Yep, happened to me too.

Like "Pastry Hazing" is what it was. Our chef was a little sadistic I think.

[DanBrown]

Thank you Chefpeon, for proving my point, contradicition is integeral in teachings regarding basic concepts due to experiential differences. Thus, experience, again, proves a better teacher for each student.

[felixe the dog]

for my 2 cents worth: Firstly standardise your recipes,
get rid of the cup measurements as they are way to innacurate for baking, why? depending on how compacted the flour is will determine how much flour you get per cup so you will actually end up with different quantities as flour and all dry ingredients are calculated by weight (volume of dry ingredients varies according to density!). Once you actually have some accuracy in your measuring of ingredients then you can determine if the recipe is a failure or not.
Oh and please standardise your measurements!!
By this I mean all imperial or all metric (Go Aussie!)