What do you think?

[W.DeBord]

Thanks for the lead Suzanne, I'll check it out.

[breadster]

ah so much to say- so little energy!

WenDB- i'm not saying that there are not the retail buyers out there- there are plenty of reknown businesses (eateries) where people travel miles to go to them- but they are few ( and i'm sure still do some wholesale)

my dream has been to open a shop on Michigan Avenue or Oak St.- not only are they the highest per capita shopping streets in the city, but the business would come from the well- heeled local residents as well as tourists- and i really believe I could do great there- but the rents would be around $7-12,000 a month!

yikes!!! cakes and cookies are not Giorgio Armani suits- thats alot of pastry to make and sell!

bakery businesses can often be seasonal- we really slow down in the summer - when peoples eating habits change and picks up Sept 1 like a back- to- school bell - that really gets harry where cash flow is concerned

there is a woman - the cake lady- who rents space from a caterer next door to me- ive seen her menu and her work- its beautiful-
she seems quite busy- i've referred people to her- i'm sure the caterer does as well
- maybe you'd like to speak with her?

the key- is to keep your overhead down- when you are starting out- thats why i started the whole thread about renting space to a pastry chef-

i rented space for a few years from a pizza parlor ( in the middle of the night) and then a caterer before i got my own place

word of mouth is a big part - you have to build the business

if funds are no object - then go for it

re advertising- i believe in it wholeheartedly- again it's so darn expensive- one ad isnt going to do much- it really does take repeated ad inserts to make a dent in peoples consciousness- so that you are the one they think of the one time they need something special- even one new customer - is a new customer

even better though not a substitute is PR- most food editors are always looking for the newest, best, unique subject or person to write about - and it comes across to the public as an endorsement-

ok thats all for now- my puppy is snoring and i have to hug her.

[W.DeBord]

I think I understand many of the basic problems of bakeries, but do I?

I'd like to mention some ideas of what I 'think' I'd do business wise to get over some of those hurdles. Any feed back would be welcome, ie. how nieve am I?

If summers are slow in bakeries they certainly aren't at country clubs. Although I'm not going to outline a plan, I'm certain since they have a need that somehow something could be worked out to fill their needs, at least the ones in driving range.

Summer is also the time for weddings and wedding sweet tables. I would market my business to party consultants, caterers (although I'm discovering more of them have pastry dept. then ever) banquet halls and major bridal shops, bridal expo.'s, florists and others working with brides.

As far as advertising I would target local papers thru out the Metro area (although I don't yet know the costs, maybe I wouldn't be able to afford them?). I know I couldn't possible afford magazine ad's. I think I would also do some dirrect mailings in affluent areas, certainly target pervious catering business that would be familar with me and areas near my last job, where I have a reputation.

I see January thru April as horribly slow in the biz. I see that as time to reload, re-design, re-group. Who's buying from you during that period breadster?

P.S. My Mother thought location was important when she choose to open her bakery in Long Grove (which is a little tourist shopping town). From what I saw and think I understood from it I don't see the advantage to most retail locations (with the exception of Michigan Ave.). Even in an Oak Street location....is a mistake in my opinion.

My reasons why (Please tell me if I'm all wet?): The 'well to do' don't eat pastries as a treat, they go jogging as a treat, buy a starbucks or have a coctail. When people walk to your location weather plays to big of role in detouring people. Winter months are horrible in less your in a mall situation (which I why I think many baking franchises (Like Mrs. Fields, Cinnabon) that don't do fullservice or wholesale business locate in malls, convience to the customer and the average person is the spontanious pastry buyer not the upper class) Plus in busy areas people can't find a parking spot and if they don't get out of the car, they don't buy anything.

Plus, the bakeries I see in wealthy comunities aren't doing any foot traffic to speak of (when I walk into their stores their empty). I think the weathly customer isn't a walk-in customer. The people who walked into our shop and bought, actually apeared to be the lower-end client, for whatever reasons (perhaps a $2.00 eclair was all they could afford? vs. a nicknack that cost $20.00?)

I think the wealthy clients spend more money at independant (non francise) businesses. Where taste is important but looks are just as important because they want to impress their guests. These people place custom orders, they don't come by and pick up pastries off the shelf.

I think everyone targets the wealthy client. I wonder about targeting the less wealthy, if that's not a bigger market? Coffee shops in strip malls on major routes to highways??? Drive thru starbucks....
A little competition with the local grocery store for the average guy who wants somthing better? Sometimes those people spend more money then the rich....

Non-pastry people, anyone agree or disgree?

[cape chef]

Wow,

I have really enjoyed reading this thread.

I have always worked for someone else,never been out on my own.Geez theres just so much that needs to be takin into account it's mind boggling. Would it be smart to start small,in a lower rent area and go wholesale at first.Go to every hotel,restuarant country club,deli ETC with samples and menus and see if you can get your foot in some doors. because of seasonality you would have to really be ontop of whos busy when.

I would like to put more thought to this topic...But I do not have the type of expereance you are talking about to really help.

But,I'll be selfish because I am really learning something here
cc

[W.DeBord]

Ah, but see I'm am only guessing. I can't see if my view is on target.

I've called some businesses and gotten some feed back but alas I haven't knocked on enough doors to know for certain what's happening. There are many branches that need pastries many reasons why somethings and some businesses aren't a viable avenue. Many things to evaluate, has no one found the answer and is there an answer? Or is the answer... there isn't an answer, better minds have thought longer on this than I could and I'm way over my head.

The only thing I can figure out is to call different perspective businesses randomly (like a poll). Can I make real judgements from that?

I've been describing a business concept I have and asking if they think it's something they would buy. Unforunately it's going to take me more time to stop being nervous and rushing thru my conversation. Especially since the concept is 50% or more visual and I can't seem to verbalize a picture.

So I keep coming back here, looking for more knowledgable insights than my own.

[momoreg]

W., I think where you need to gain more knowledge are in 2 areas: demographics (which you can get info on at the library , or town hall), and what things cost to make in quantity, as well as what the going rate is for various items, both retail and wholesale.

Also, call the publications you'd want to advertise in, and find out ad prices. You can do all of that fairly easily, and I think you'll feel more confident in some of your ideas.

Do your best to find peers in your area (like breadster)who will be able to tell you who their market is, when the season fluctuates, and what they do at slow times.

[W.DeBord]

Momoreg, I would love to talk to others in my area. I can't get over feeling shy about calling some decorators and or bakeries. I keep thinking they'll see me only as competition and they'll brush me off quickly. Do you have any insights or ideas of how I could approach these people with-out offending or pretending I'm either seeking employement or a prospective customer?

[breadster]

this is getting to be quite a juicy thread, isnt it?

i only have a few minutes right now but

1) the wealthy customers do eat pastries as a treat!
we are down the street from a fancy schmancy health club- and many members come to our shop after their workouts- munching away on the samples we always have out

2) understand- i do think there is a place for what you are describing- good taste and willingness to pay for it are not just a provenance of the wealthy -

3) one of the most important concepts i learned in my former life- NOBODY ASPIRES TO MEDIOCRITY

so you continue to do your high end fare but make it available to everyone in some form- $20.00 nicknack but maybe a miniature version for $3.00 -

our best selling torte is one of our most expensive ones- the small at $20.00 sells very well, but the miniatures at $6.00 fly out of the case

it becomes a very special treat -we box it up really nicely, and at $6.00 its easy for someone to be a hero -


especially in these times- people may hesitate to buy the second car or computer but will treat themselves and family with a special food treat

ok gotta go

[CompassRose]

Think it depends what you mean by "wealthy," too. One of the fanciest pastry places in Toronto, Dufflet's (www.dufflet.com) is on Queen West, where all the uber-trendy go to shop... cutting-edge fashion and sleek home decor stores, fancy bath-and-body boutiques, and lots and lots of restaurants. No, the old money doesn't hang there, but the young-ish overpaid professional is all over the place. IMHO, they're the ones with money to burn, AND they're the ones that really want to make a splash when they spend.

And I've never been into Dufflet's and not found it jammed, both with in-store customers and people buying things by the boxload to take home.

Dufflet also sells outside of town; I can buy her cakes and things (swoon) at the local yuppie Italian grocer here in K-W, about an hour away.

[momoreg]

I understand what you are saying, Wendy. What I mean by peers is not necessarily people with the same type of product, but people in the industry selling to the same market.

[W.DeBord]

I had many conversations with our (at my last job) Edward Don supplier (although he isn't a food guy he has some insights) and owner the of Justice Foods, Inc. who's one of the bigger wholesale dessert suppliers in the Chicago club scene. Justice doesn't make any items, they are distributors.

They weren't at all enouraging. They really thought the wholesale market is soooo tight neither thought it would be a wise move. Chris our Don guy just thought I was NUTS!

Perhaps those aren't the kind of people you were refering to? Sometimes it's so hard to know what the truth is. Our Edward Don guy used to always moan about how sales are down everywhere, his sales are down, he only makes pennies on every order....it's always the good old days when we made money, etc...

E. Justice was always more quite and helpful (a very very nice man). He tried to give me some job leads and advice, but he thought wholesale pastries is way to hard of a way to go for a wanttobe.

[shroomgirl]

I have a friend with a much more active catering biz than I and he buys Sweet Street wholesale bars for less $ then adds fancier local treats when the job needs it....you cannot compete with 15cents a bar. no way no how, who would want to.

This is a weird comment, but Michael Roman gives alot of courses and has written text books on catering and says most successful guys are mediocre...sad, but think about it....

PR can eat you alive!!! It takes consistant advertising.....there are alot of ways to trade or do promotions that render PR for less $$ out of pocket. Check into your James Beard Group, I went to a dinner at Fancy Food Show put on by the Beard group....that is great PR....our group supliments our out of pocket so I have nominal exspenses with the Picnic I cook for. UMMMM....classes pulled in alot of clients for me, Check out the high end rags and see if the back ads cost the same...our local one has $20 ads that are in the back I've gotten good responses from that....
Neiman has a bridal fair, offer to have a wedding cake or sweet table as a trade in exchange for being apart of the day....
Brochure is imparitive.....they can be costly so watch how randomly they are given out. Portfolio, really works, and I know it and havn't done it for myself.
Take baskets of treats to radio stations and they will talk about them on the air, with your PR release of course.

[breadster**]

so another question you need to ask yourself -

can you or do you want to work with other people or solito?

if you want to open a place- there is no way you can do it alone- i take it back- it's very hard to do it alone without some help whether its answering phones, taking care of customers, all the pastry work....

if you rent space from someone, you cut your overhead, answer only to yourself (and clients) take on what you can handle and learn as you grow your business -what works and what doesnt

[W.DeBord]

I 'think' I learned about profits when I was back catering. We certainly didn't aspire to mediocrity!! No, instead we burned out the other way, literally. Profits come from repetition (that's etched into my brain, finally)!

I don't aspire to mediocrity now, but I do understanding why their are so many 'average' businesses and I really respect them, where as I didn't years ago. Unforunatly I'm not willing to find the money to compete with the big guys and gain the average customer. I do have a plan that includes pricing teirs to include 2 or 3 price ranges. At some point I realize I'll have to let the 'gods' see who my customer will be, who (if anyone) will buy this product and then build it up, then once I get established go back and broaden my market?... I don't want to be everything to everyone, I will say no to the time wasters.


Along the road I need to figure out if I have the 'stuff' to compete as the 'top dog' cake lady. Unforunately my photos are limited to the work available while on my last job. Where decorating was a luxury not the primary focus. I need to increase my wedding cake portfolio....but that's not a big deal, just time.

I have no intention of spend big dollars on a brocure. I can do a satisfactory job myself (considering I've done it a few times professionally). I'd rather work with-in my computors printing abilities and update my brocure frequently, if not seasonally. (Once upon a time I bought the min. number of borcures for my limited edition print business, they were out dated the day I printed them) I also might be able to help alittle schroomgirl if you ever want to talk about brocures in more detail.

I would only consider renting from someone else. I wouldn't dream of setting up my own place right now. A store front isn't necessary for what I have in mind.

All along I've always wanted a partner. I understand to turn out a really great product my attention would be to divided almost 70/30 between marketing and doing. I want to get my ideas down because I understand (finally) that I'll need to be a sales person more than an artist for a long time. As of yet I haven't met the right person to pair up with....but I dream about it.

I do wonder if theirs another pastry chef/decorator out there who already has something started but needs help, like me. But I don't know how to find that? I think I have more to offer than an employee?


Great ideas Schroomgirl, no doubt your a great pr person!

[shroomgirl]

with alittle help from my friends!!!! For the market I have 8 week schedules that have information on what the market is "we sell it, we raise it", what attractions there are and then the chef schedule on the back, this year I'm cutting back to one chef a week and printing musicians on the schedule. But this is printed on 1/2 sheet of card stock/colored of course...to fit on a fridge.

weekly market news....what's growing, what I'm up to, what the farmers are up to....

Amazing Grace Dinner Schedules...again on card stock

T-shirts and caps...organic cotton with the market logo

I have different events to promote shtuff throughout the season.

Heirloom tomato fest...Nicko helped judge that one....8/4

Photo contest....ametuers take pics of the market, win a prize from the photo shop on the street and then the photo is exhibited at a new cooking school with a party reception of course and then the photos are used and potentially auctioned off. That's one of my better ones.

Cookbook authors signing their books and I bring in local chefs to cook from their books.....I like this one a lot....so do the guys.
newspaper photos are then taken at the market....if I knew how to link you I'd give you dates for the Home chefs and Danny Meyer pics.

Radio....I have a few family and friend connections that garner some air time for projects in the works.

Saucecafe is our website, they do a wonderful job, I feed them info and they do the magic.



***Where I have fallen short is newsletters and info on what all I'm doing to the chefs and locals.....I keep verbal contact with several supportive chefs, just show in the kitchen and talk....that way I know the info is recieved. But keeping everyone updated on the systemic changes I working toward is difficult. NOONE does meetings....except when they are soooo ticked off they don't have a proactive agenda.

Now my catering is another animal. I don't have a set menu, pretty stupid. I wanna do individual things for each event. Give me a budget, tell me the theme, venue, guest type and I devise a menu.....works alot of the time....I still need to come upwith a set menu type for a variety of parties. And the portfolio!!!! That is pretty important.

***Now what has really been beneficial to me is being apart of professional organizations....I've been active with a local food group for 5 years...met many movers and shakers in the community that way. I also volunteered to organize mushroom events for a couple of years...jobs have come from that venue.
James Beard Picnic brings in business also....so if you get a sense of what food groups are in your community I'd say join at least one that has networking possibilities for you....cuts out alot of time by being able to pick up the phone and KNOW who you are talking to....rather than cold calls.

The whole point to this is to tell you I spend an inordinate amount of time and energy on PR....coming up with events that the press will write about.