What do you think?

[breadster]

WdB-
one thing - very important -lest i be misunderstood

- one i spoke about "aspire to mediocrity" it wasnt aimed at the chef or baker- rather the consumer- that whether one has limited or unlimited funds they would still like to be able to purchase "the best"-

and that would still work for you in your 3 tier set up

someone with less to spend could still use you, but perhaps their options and choices are limited- but theyre still getting the best

re brochures- the computer has been a godsend- i agree with you

it was sickening to see how many outdated brochures weve thrown away- cost me $100s of $$$ each printing

now we print up menus as we need them, change them for an item change or introduction print some of our own labels

some might argue that the paper and printer ink and labor costs more in the long run, but not when you are sitting on unused and obsolete 'paper'

granted , my assistant does most of it, and teaches me the easy stuff

[W.DeBord]

P.S. Suzanne, I couldn't find the article you mentioned on the radio. Did you hear it, was it informative?

On to: Renting space from an existing business. This will be my next bigger challange to educate myself about.


What are the issues? Refrideration space, freezers, how to store away ingred. ...has anyone looked into the details?


How do you protect yourself? Do you sign a contract between the existing business and yourself? What happens if their equipment breaks down on your time?


How do you assure the existing business that you'll do no harm to them either? This will be their biggest concern and probably stop most business owners from a 'sub-use' situation. So before I approach a business what issues will I need to cover for their peace of mind?

[W.DeBord]

Momoreg you mentioned Sweet Lisa's is your main competition....I guess I was wondering what your up to? I know your pregnant (and that must influence your professional desires right now), but are you going solo too? Have you sought out any business?

[momoreg]

Thanks for asking...

I have been doing cakes for my former employer, and she's got quite a bit lined up for the next 2 weeks as well (mostly croquembouches and marzipan nutcrackers). It has been very rewarding.

I have a friend who is the exec. chef at a private school near here, and he runs a catering business out of that kitchen. I have been getting work from them also. Last week they hosted a party for faculty and parents, and I donated 3 cakes for 200 guests. The response was very good, and lots of people took my business card. I hope to see a return on that during the next month. The F&B guy there asked me if I'd be interested in doing buche de noel for 800 (a lot of roulade!!) sometime this season, and I said yes, so as you can see, there is a lot going on.

On top of that, I interviewed for a pastry chef position at a very nice restaurant that's due to open in December. The interview went very well, and the chef seemed not to mind that I'm due to have a baby in May. In fact, he called me a few days ago to tell me that he enjoyed meeting me (it was mutual), and plans to get back to me after Thansgiving. I would like to work until my 8th month, but I have no way of knowing whether I'll be able (or willing) to handle restaurant hours with a newborn. I guess that all remains to be seen. It would be an enriching experience, I think. And hopefully, we'll be able to work something out for post-maternity.

[W.DeBord]

So your keeping your options open.......either way. That's cool that you got things worked out with your former employeer!

Do you mind if I ask you what your doing about insurance? I'm not sure yet what if any differences there are between a cake business and a restaurant (price wise), but it sems like it should be alot less? Just incase you might be interested...I stumbled into a interesting find on the net looking for resources. Pehaps your familar with it already, Modern Baking magazine lead me to RBA (retailer bakery association), www.RBANET.com there's tons and tons of info and sources there! You also can buy insurance thru them. I couldn't find any rough pricing on it, but I plan on looking into it more. Then I discovered Chicago has a bakery association too (although none of our top decorators were members....) but I never thought about these resources before.

All those times when I couldn't find something....I have Modern Baking's "buyers handbook' right on my shelf! It an amazing resource, I can't imagine anything that could be more informative for resources.

[Anna W.]

W.deBord-

WOW! Thanks for sending me to this board- it's great. Now that I have seen what specific lines you are talking about, I can give you some specifics.

You live in a large city- you have a good geographical location to work with (yes, you will have traffic to deal with). You will find the clientele you are looking for once you put yourself out there.

As far as advertising- if you are looking to specialize in wedding cakes and specialty pastries, I don't think that local papers is a good idea. I would find a local bridal magazine that is willing to hand over thier mailing list as part of the deal. I advertise with The Wedding Pages (Cleveland), they hand over their mailing list monthly, I send a postcard to those in the area I am targeting and I get a great response. These are people who you know are already looking for what you offer. The ad and the mailings cost about $1000 year- it pays for itself in one or two wedding cakes. As far as attracting caterers, look for high end catering who will refer people to you, not buy your product. Most caterers do have a low ceiling on desserts. Most around here, even the high end ones will buy from a distributor like Sysco (my husband is a Sysco salesman and gets the inside scoop for me). In my experience if you offer custom work-especially in design- that is what initially will attract them. As far as getting them to recommend you- it is a grassroots campaign- bring them abundant samples, always send a thank you note and a yearly gift (more samples- only bigger)once you hook them.

My other advice that I gave you in your e-mail is personalized service. People with money love attention and that "elite" feeling. It is hard to find good service.

If you are looking for additional ways to supplement the cake and decorating- I know of one decorator on the east coast who has a stand at the local market on Saturdays to sell smaller pastries. We also have several like that at the market I go to- it is a lot of traffic and the yuppies have no problem bringing home a treat for the families.

As far as space- am I correct in remembering that you did not want a retail store front? If you don't then location is less important.

Does that answer your questions more specifically?

Thanks again- this is a great board.

[Spoons]

Welcome Anna W.
From a fellow cake designer.
I always admired your input at another forum.
Yes, this is a great board.
Enjoy!

[Anna W.]

Spoons- what is your alias on the other board?

[W.DeBord]

To advertise I was thinking the right paper to use is one that we recieve free monthly (in the Chciago burbs). I don't know if other cities have this (other towns around Chicago do)? It's called 'Lifestyles' (it might be called something different in each town) and it's not bad looking, it's printed on white stock and it's a bit over sized too, comes in the mail (not on the driveway).

Anyway it's the place where organizations advertise their events (they get covered for free), like the ladies clubs advertise their house walks and the Jaycee's talk abou their last formal ball. Then local business buy ad space and get a paraghraph or two by their ad to write a story about their business (like a column). It's really the society pages of the area. The ladies get to see their photos handing over donations to different charities. It lists different art and library events or when comunity events take place, etc....

Do any of you have recieve these mailers?

I like the idea of buying the mailing list but I have a couple questions? Like won't those names be dated, many of the people could already be married before you do your mailing? For that high of a cost I wonder if a bulk mailing (in the right areas) wouldn't be cheaper? Would you mind sharing aprox. numbers....like on a mailing to 200 people off your targeted purchased list, how many responses do you get on average?

Thanks.

[Anna W.]

Regarding the mailing list: The way the Wedding Pages works is that the bride signs up for a free magazine. You get a monthly list of the people who signed up that month complete with address and wedding date. I cross out the dates I already have booked and the addresses that are not desireable. I send post cards to the rest. It averages 75-100 that get sent out a month. You can not do bulk mailing unless you have thousands of things to mail and they all have to be sorted by zip code.

This other paper you are talking about sounds reasonable if it is wealthy people looking to see what the other wealthy people are doing.

[W.DeBord]

Still trying to figure all this out.....I desided to go and see who the "big shots" are in my area. My husband (the good sport) drove with me to visit www.royaleicing.com on his birthday (5 hours driving there and back). I promised him some good samples....but guess what? Her charming little store isn't anything like her charming little web site.

It's in a BAD neighborhood. It's not open to the public like the web site appears. And the windows are all covered from the inside with paper. Their photo at her web site is REALLY WELL DONE for that property. Although it did look like they are in business.

I also looked up the young women from chocolatier magazine (Alica B.) who said she does 900 cakes a year. Her cake business is GONE! I found her in a new location (downtown) with an answering machine as your only contact. The message says their a wholesale bakery.....


So my head keeps asking "whats wrong here?". This is a BIG town! WHERE ARE ALL THE BAKERIES? It's either the most abandoned market and ripe for the picking OR it's a dead end street and I shouldn't linger too long on this thought. Eeks, kind of seems dreadful!

So I got the lastest Chicago brides magazine yesterday. Noticed who is advertising wedding cakes, only 8 or 9 shops. Some appear not to be shops/bakeries, just solo women.

Anyway, I haven't run away yet (I must be crazy). But I need help finding sources.... How do you find out who sponsors those bridal shows (I've heard them advertised) that are usually held in hotels in the earily spring?
I kind of think there's a network there. How would I find them? And specificly how would I find the Wedding Pages (you mentioned Anna) in my area?

It's time to get specific. Thanks in advance!

[Anna W.]

To advertise in wedding pages- they are also known as the knot. Go to www.theknot.com , click on advertising (very bottom of page), and then on local advertising.

As far as bridal shows- if you can remember anyone who sponsors them you can give them a call. If you do end up advertising you will get plenty of people asking you to be in a show.

A good idea might be to call those other advertised cake people and ask questions as if you were a bride. Then you will know what people are up to and you can compare apples to apples. How long have you been making wedding cakes? What do your prices start at? What flavors do you offer? What type of icing do you use? Is delivery included? Do you do fondant, gumpaste, or any other special technique? Do you offer a free consultation? How much of a deposit do you need to hold a day for me? If I bring in a photo can you duplicate it?

[panini]

Wendy,
I have sworn off posting, but I just had to jump on and see where you are with you plans.
I just have to tell you, not to over plan your plans. I understand you must check all things out, I do the same, but sometimes you just have to jump.
I like the idea of renting space. Set back a couple of months rent,
expenses and such.
You can develope the best business plan to make pastries for clubs, but if the first 30 people that come to you want wedding cakes, well, your in the wedding cake business. The customer usually dictates which direction you will go.
I personally don't like to advertize. I have never felt it as good as word of mouth. If you have two wedding cakes for 500 people each. your direct advertizing to 1000 people and getting paid.
Clubs are a good source of income, but you must find the ones that are not managed by contracts that bind them to the Sysco's of the world.
Join the chefs association in your area, join the wedding planers in your area, NACE, these people all go to networking meetings and lunches. Probably more business then you can handle.I did not do professional networking when I started and I regret it now.
anyway, your always welcome to email. Just Do It!!

Just my 2 cents, no partners!!! No personal guarentees!!! no long term leases to start!!! no barter for rent, pay your rent and have the flex. to do what you want!!!
Hope this year will be prosperous for you,ps Sophie has quit her job and has joined me in the business. Visit if you like.
jeff

[momoreg]

Jeff, Why have you sworn off posting?

[panini]

Well, its all me. I've taken to just reading. Sometimes you get so deep into the forest you can't see the trees. I love to talk food and business. This is a great site and the people here are very insightful, they take great care in researching answers.
For me, I'm just plain and simple, I only post from my own experiences and mistakes. I forget that there is so much more.
I really need a site that has a specific thread for baking for dollars.
My wife has just given up her career in advertising to join me in my quest to bring back the small family businesses. Sometimes I feel like I'm in the middle of the lake drowning, franchises popping up all aroud me. Mediocre products and service will be common place if we let it happen. It has taken a long time to build the little places we have, I probably have made all the mistakes and learned all the lessons, I just like to pass that knowledge to those starting out to make their bid, a little less painful.
PS We don't have the best product out there, but it's quality, and you will always have a sympathetic ear and a warm smile when you walk throught the door.
Momo,Wendy and all that I post to, I hope this year will be a healthy and prosperous one.
jsn