[lentil]

I just hired a young person who graduated from a 2 year culinary program at a well known culinary school. Her focus was baking and her portfolio looked great.

Her first task was to frost a 6 inch 4 layer cake which would later be decorated with fresh flowers. She did a great job. The next day, she was to frost another cake which she did very poorly- dragging the crumbs through the frosting and making a huge mess. I had to scrape it all off and start over. Today she was supposed to make a blueberry pie by cooking the berries with cornstarch for a few minutes. She was totally lost although she read the recipe. She had never used cornstarch as a thickener before and had to be directed throughout the process. She can't multiply a recipe and had no earthly idea what approx 4 ounces of butter would look like.

My question to you is this: what should I expect a graduate of culinary school to know? I suspect that if I asked her to make puff pastry from scratch, she'd do fine, but the simple stuff is lost on her. What's up with this? Any thoughts?

[m brown]

This is something that burns my biscuits.
I teach in a little known community college culinary department, it kills me to see people spend $$$ for an education that they have no base for. -does that make sense?
First off, you need to teach EVERYTHING not just the sexy sugar work or artisan breads.
I love that I get to show and tell every day. We teach TECHNIQUE, the technique will set you free.
From using an oven, washing the floors, what flour to use for what reason, how to crack an egg, peel a carrot, use a scale~digital, bakers beam,~ measure liquids.
I know, it's not cutting edge but most students coming into culinary school have never cooked outside the home.

[lentil]

She talks about having to iron her aprons, iron pleats in her chef's jacket, and how they wanted the apron tied. Seems like a waste of $$ to me when they could have told her that 4 cups = a quart.

[m brown]

while uniform is important, and i do hold students accountable, it's not the only thing.
following direction, working within a group as leader or follower, problem solving, curiosity....

[BenRias]

I feel for you and for her....it must suck interviewing a confident student who seemed qualified only to have her not meet your needs. But believe me, she is falling hard right now realizing everything that she doesn't know.

All cooking schools are great for giving controlled exposure to techniques and kitchen equipment. This builds confidence.

But I learned that there are a LOT of drawbacks to cooking school too.

1) schools do not allow for repetition, and the one chance you get at making something is usually ideal circumstances. You make a hollandaise once, and that's it! You don't learn how to do it over different types of heat sources....you don't learn what to do when it breaks....you don't learn to do it at kitchen speed...you don't learn the simple way of doing it (i.e. you learn a method that is fancy and more complex than most restaurants would use)...you don't learn many (if any) of the signs to look for to make sure you are on the right track. I could make hollandaise at home, no problem....but for the life of me, I could not make it consistently on a french top in a prof. kitchen with no double boiler.

She probably did the first cake just fine because for whatever reason, it was the perfect set of circumstances for her....but the next cake with the crumb problem, maybe the cake was drier, or the icing thicker...and she probably never had the chance to learn how to "see" these issues nor how to compensate for them, nor how to prevent them. She probably didn't even realize that she was doing it wrong until it as pointed out to her.

2) Students really are at the mercy of the teachers they get. My basic cookery teacher couldn't make a hollandaise herself....she tried and it failed. So she had us watch a demo by another chef and then never gave us the chance to make it ourselves......since I "knew" how to make it at home, I felt fine in bypassing the sauce. But WOW did this lack of knowledge show through once I was on the line.

And for that...I wonder if your new hire even ever received exposure to thickening using corn starch. To you, it is the simplest thing in the world to do, but I would not be surprised if her instructor taught them "If you need to thicken something....do it THIS way! THIS way is the best way....if you do it like me, you won't need to know any other way." (I have seen this before too.) And, she probably only thickened fruit a few times in total....each time she probably did it the exact same way as the instructor had taught them.

3) As for multiplying the recipes....wow....that is really bad unless, of course, they received all their recipes pre-multiplied for them. That was the one thing we DID receive repetition on! We were to type up recipes cards each week and adjust the recipes for the number of servings needed (actually, I think I did this on my own because I wanted to learn how to do it.) Either way, I am certain that she should have at least learned that much. So don't know what to tell you there.

I know the chef I externed under for a short time had a controlled-contempt for cooking schools for these reasons above (and more.)

But from the student point of view "How do I get into a kitchen without experience?" Cooking schools make you think you have experience....and let's be a little honest here....would you have hired her if she came to you with no experience but said she really wanted to learn how to bake?

Sadly, I do think that both sides get the short end of the stick on this one. She's led to believe she is ready for the big time....you know she is just starting out, but you didn't realize that YOU would be responsible for re-training her from square-one.

Man, I don't know if I really added anything to this discussion other than to say I am sorry for what you are going through. Good luck to you both!

[ED BUCHANAN]

[QUOTE=lentil;276858]I just hired a young person who graduated from a 2 year culinary program at a well known culinary school. Her focus was baking and her portfolio looked great.

Her first task was to frost a 6 inch 4 layer cake which would later be decorated with fresh flowers. She did a great job. The next day, she was to frost another cake which she did very poorly- dragging the crumbs through the frosting and making a huge mess. I had to scrape it all off and start over. Today she was supposed to make a blueberry pie by cooking the berries with cornstarch for a few minutes. She was totally lost although she read the recipe. She had never used cornstarch as a thickener before and had to be directed throughout the process. She can't multiply a recipe and had no earthly idea what approx 4 ounces of butter would look like.

My question to you is this: what should I expect a graduate of culinary school to know? I suspect that if I asked her to make puff pastry from scratch, she'd do fine, but the simple stuff is lost on her. What's up with this? Any thoughts?[/QUOTE

I can tell you from experience to assume and expect nothing. I taught for 9 years and learned one thing myself, they either have it in the hands or they don't. I blame the schools and their greed for the almighty dollar. They should give an aptitude test before taking in the student and stealing their money. When I was teaching I got in a lot of trouble by saying to the class at the offset" Everybody receive this textbook? OK throw it in the garbage, because I am going to show and tell you the way its really done out there"". The dean thought I was crazy, but the students I had did better then the others. I am not bragging ,but as I have said on many occasions the schools paint visions of sugarplums in there heads, and like most businesses are concerned with bottom line and profits. All schools after an aptitude test should also require at least 1 year of food service employment before admittance.

[lentil]

Thanks, all of you. I guess I did expect a lot more than I got from her, but I shouldn't have assumed a thing when I hired her. I was really excited to hire someone who could decorate a cake and make professional looking baked goods I could sell to other restaurants. That's not going to happen with this one, I'm afraid. I just don't have the time to get her there. It must be the nature of the curriculum in culinary school to have to touch on something and move along.

We had a discussion this morning after she ruined a half sheet chocolate cake...forgot the baking soda... I told her that every time she starts a recipe, I want to see all the ingredients on one side of the table. As she uses each one, I want to see it on the other side. The kitchen is full of distractions and it's easy for anyone to forget where they are in a recipe. We also talked about just how much she (or anyone coming out of any school) doesn't know. It takes real world experience to round out the education and after she makes that damned chocolate cake about 500 times, she'll be able to do it in her sleep. In all honesty, the baker I've had for 2 years still screws up. It's so frustrating to see $$ go out the window though.

We're a busy little cafe and everyone has to jump in where needed. Ideally, the baker is on her own, but sometimes distractions can't be helped.

[Mikeb]

Originally Posted by lentil

My question to you is this: what should I expect a graduate of culinary school to know? I suspect that if I asked her to make puff pastry from scratch, she'd do fine, but the simple stuff is lost on her. What's up with this? Any thoughts?

Odds are she'd screw up the puff pastry as well... You really can't expect anything out of a culinary school grad.

Last pastry job I had I had to supervise several pastry school grads - they were so clueless I'd give them busywork just so they didn't have time to screw anything up. Every once in awhile I'd walk them through something, or maybe let them do a few things with supervision. The fact of the matter is, culinary school is more or less a scam to separate people from their money - if you want to learn, go work for a Michelin starred chef for awhile (or a good, professional pastry chef)...

I've actually known a few chefs who absolutely refused to hire a culinary school grad - if job-seekers listed a culinary school on their CV it was promptly thrown away...

Not to mention, doing pastries simply isn't for everyone. You need to be very organized, borderline obsessive about details, understand food chemistry, have basic math skills (surprising how many cooks fail here) and be able to multitask...

[chefpeon]

Love the responses....I ditto what everyone said. Every culinary school grad I have hired or worked with was a miserable failure, sorry to say. I was surprised and disappointed when I came to figure out that I couldn't count on them like I thought I would be able to.

When I came out of culinary school, my chefs made it very plain that school was just a way to get your foot in the door. The REAL education started once you got a job. My attitude was when I got in the work world that I would be licking dishes for a while, and I did. I still had to work myself up the ladder, and I was driven to learn, even when school ended. I watched my bosses closely and did what I was told. I learned that "yes, Chef" were the only words they wanted to hear. I guess that's how I survived it all. As a culinary school grad myself, it's hard for me to believe how pathetic most of the grads are now these days. It's like they have a sense of entitlement, false confidence, and no drive to learn or WORK hard once they're in your kitchen.

[m brown]

This is a great thread. I am going to take this info and make good use of it.

[lentil]

from chefpeon-it's hard for me to believe how pathetic most of the grads are now these days. It's like they have a sense of entitlement, false confidence, and no drive to learn or WORK hard once they're in your kitchen.

I don't think this goes just for culinary grads. Just look at our own children....well, not mine, but.... Many of them have a sense of entitlement and the false confidence that comes from parents telling them what a wonderful job they've done every time they poop. Just the other day, one of my staff was complaining that her kid's school finally has an advanced math class for the higher achievers, and some dope of a mom fought to have her daughter included "because she wanted to" even though the poor girl is going to be so out of her league. For what purpose? Just so the stupid mom can say that her little princess is in the [I]advanced[I] math class?

My friend teaches poli sci at the university. She has parents call her to tell her that she didn't give their kid the grade they deserved. She has had the little charmers tell her that "my dad PAID for my education and if you don't give me a good grade, he is going to have your job". Really? That little sh*t would be out of my class so fast- daddy or no daddy.

My son once told me (he's now 17) that he knows when he's done a good job and when he hasn't and thought adults were either stupid or dishonest when they gave him false praise.

BTW, after my post yesterday about the grad, she tried another cake AND FORGOT TO DOUBLE THE COCOA when she had doubled everything else. I told her to clean up and go home.

I don't know if I'd said that her second screw up was the FOURTH time the cake was made wrong. 2 by her and 2 by my usual baker who didn't put the right amount of batter in the 12x18 cake pans- you'd think she'd never done this before or that maybe 1/2 inch layers would be especially attractive because a 2 layer birthday cake that's 2 inches tall is always a good thing. Oddly enough, I had the least experienced girl make it with my help, and it is wonderful! Now I have to go in on my day off to frost the hated cake to take to my friend's 50th b'day party. If I was starving, I wouldn't have a piece of that damned cake! I will, however, have a big margarita.

[ED BUCHANAN]

Get rid of the other 2 and make the girl with little experience the assistant baker under your tutolage. Give her praise and maybe a raise, you will be better off. Just because a kid spends $20,000.00 a year to go to CIA, does not mean zilch.

[BenRias]

I have to HIGHLY AGREE with chefpeon's comment.....schooling was a way to get your foot in the door.

Prior to taking classes, I received absolutely zero interviews. AFTER taking some classes, I finally started getting call backs (even though I really hadn't gained any dramatically new knowledge.) I hadn't even finished a full year yet. But it was just enough actual knowledge to make my resume look readable, I guess.

But it was the brief externship where I learned just what was needed in the kitchen, and learned more accurately where my speed and skills were. Because of that experience, I have also been able to turn down a few jobs because I knew that I would be out of my league and slowing the line down. Can I make paninis and crepes? Yes! Can I make hundreds of them for a high volume bistro serving a large to-go clientele in a business district of a large city? Not yet!

It was a little sad though, because I would have loved to receive training for it, but they were not in a position to offer training--yet, they kept trying to get me to accept the position....weird. Anyways, I knew that I would not be a good fit for the job or their needs. If I have interviewed straight out of my culinary classes, I would have thought, "Sure....I can soooooo do this job, no problem! Panini press? Yeah I have used one before....Turn out 12 ingredient paninis every 30-45 seconds? Not a problem."

Even with just a little real world experience, I feel like I have learned a ton about myself and real world duties. And sadly, I wouldn't have gotten that much without some classes on my resume. The double-bind, right?

Continued luck with your bakery!

[rat]

The last CIA grad I had was a big disappointment, the end of the week on a late Saturday service it was time to clean the station and pack it up for the night. I got done scrubbing the floor and asked her to mop up the rest. Keep in mind I am the pastry chef and I am scrubbing the floor myself, the yucky part. All I asked was for her to grab a mop and get the rest of the water up. She looked at me and said she did not spend x amount of dollars to mop floor, she was a chef not a dishwasher. I fired her the next day after consulting with the exec chef, he was just as floored. It is the sense of entitlement that gets me, no one wants to put in the time anymore.
She could make pretty pulled sugar flowers though.

[chefpeon]

The last CIA grad I had was a big disappointment, the end of the week on a late Saturday service it was time to clean the station and pack it up for the night. I got done scrubbing the floor and asked her to mop up the rest. Keep in mind I am the pastry chef and I am scrubbing the floor myself, the yucky part. All I asked was for her to grab a mop and get the rest of the water up. She looked at me and said she did not spend x amount of dollars to mop floor, she was a chef not a dishwasher. I fired her the next day after consulting with the exec chef, he was just as floored. It is the sense of entitlement that gets me, no one wants to put in the time anymore.
She could make pretty pulled sugar flowers though.

Wow. I mean just, wow.