Hi - mind if I crash?

CJ,
I have a ton of recipes from a master baker who owned and operated his own bussiness for 15 years before he sold it. So if you need recipes I have hundreds he gave me that are tried and true. As a matter of fact i plan to open a bakery in Ohio in the next couple years. I also can get ANY info you need about opening a bakery straight from a master pastry chef and would be glad to help where i can.

[Mezzaluna]

It would be a tragedy if you two turned out to be competitors! CJ, how about breakfast knishes? Fill them with egg, bacon (a sacrilege in some parts of the country, but in Ohio it might fly- unless you're in Cincinatti near the HUC campus), sausage... omelet fixins, to be brief. Big, gooey cinnamon rolls would be on my list, including ones studded with pecans and plenty of caramel. Smoothies might me nice, too. I think younger customers would like them. You could market huge oatmeal or meusli cookies or muffins for breakfast. If you could work in some protein powder, some people would consider that a nutritious breakfast. For lunches, how about ratatouille or other veggie stew (or meat stew) in a bread bowl? Wraps of various kinds; strombolis and calzones; focaccia; bagel dogs. Soup is extremely popular, so I'd be happy to see a menu of excellent soups. In my part of Wisconsin, kringles are the rave, and have been for many decades. I can hardly imagine those not going over! Having said all that, I guess Momoreg's advice that we are not your public should rule. But that was fun anyway! Good luck.

[ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Mezzaluna ]

[CJ]

Whooohooo – the loan was approved!!! I’m not 100% sure I’ve got the bakery yet, though. All the paperwork should be finished by the end of next week, but the current owners said they’ll show it to another of my competitors tomorrow anyway.


You’re completely right, Momoreg – I want to use it’s history as part of the draw, so it would be a mistake to make any drastic changes to existing recipe flavors or completely overhaul the menu. Just not sure what the menu was. Some things could be updated, though. Croissants, bagels, sourdough… anything that gained popularity around here within the last 20 years probably isn’t in the archives.

Thanks, Dave I'd love to take you up on the offer. I’m in NE Ohio, near Akron, are you close by?

That is, unless Mezzaluna’s right about us being competition. Thaanks M.

I’m going to have to display some ignorance here – I’ve heard of knishes and kringles, but have never seen them around here. But cinnamon rolls – oh yeah! Gotta have ‘em! Soups are always a sellout, even in the summer. That idea of breakfast cookies is wickedly outstanding, especially in a college town. Have to remember to hide them during parents’ weekend. How about spreading on a filling, folding them in half & calling them “Breakfast Mezzalunas?” You’re right, this is fun! I think everyone’s ideas are great to hear about, especially in this case. The students come from all over and the residents are a pretty mixed bag as well.

Well, I'd better go bounce off some more walls



[ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: CJ ]

[momoreg]

That's wonderful news, CJ! Congratulations !

I wonder why they want to keep showing it?? That's a bit disconcerting. Can't your lawyer stop them?

[Papa]

Dear CJ;

Congratulations on your loan approval! That is great news!

I have read your recent postings carefully and although I am not in the business, I can tell that you know your stuff!

I will endeavour to give you some assistance by telling you what I am looking for in a bakery that fits your description. I am not a baker neither a market analyst so please understand that these suggestions are based on personal taste and eating habits. I hope they are of some assistance to you.

A bakery that does not sell bread is not a true bakery to me. Breads that I cannot resist buying are a freshly baked french baquette (not from frozen dough) and olive bread.

Real croissants are a big attraction tome. I eat them straight, and they are my favorite for sandwiches. I also love chocolate croissants, cheese croissants, omellette croissants, ... you name it.

Gallettes/crepes are a big show attraction during the preparation and making stage, fill the shop with great smell, and they can be stuffed with spinach, cheese, omellette, ... anything that you can imagine including desssert types. In Brittany there was a bakery that tourists and locals used to line up to get a seat that was serving 70 different types of crepes!

Coffee is an essential. Great profit margins and you can beat the chains easily on quality/price by using the right supplier. Tea is also another great one for the same reasons. They also attract people all day long and fill the tables during non-eating hours. They make great take-outs too.

I wish you all the best. My wishes are probably worth more than my suggestions.

Oh, just to follow Papa's lead - I love fresh cream bakery products. They are so hard to get in the US!!! They are easy to get in the UK and very very popular.

Making something no-one else has would surely give you a market edge - but of course it's up to you.

I agree with him about the bread because even people on diets usually still eat bread - widens the target market

Let me know if you decide to make fresh cream products - send me a card so i can know where i can buy them! I'll come buy some if I can get there and am not on a diet. Oh my husband and his whole family loves them too - mine tends not to eat them much out of the "too unhealthy" mentality - but hey, once in a while...

(hope it was ok to add this...it's all true )

fim

p.s. just to be clear: when I say cream I mean, the bit of the milk that people have who aren't on diets, whipped...the only ingredients came out of a cow - I am not talking about some sort of 'custard' stuff...

It's one of those things that just about everyone who has had it likes. There may be a lot of Americans (well not on this board of chefs maybe, but - in general ) who never had a fresh-cream bakery product...given that they are not mass-marketed, to my knowledge. It doesn't 'keep' more than a day or two; I guess that's perhaps one reason why. But in a bakery it that would be less of an issue, right, since everything is fresh anyway?

So it's a relatively untapped market imo...

[ June 09, 2001: Message edited by: foodisme ]

[W.DeBord]

CJ you said you welcomed any comments etc...I have a pet peeve to mention. When I visit a small bakery even as a pastry chef I want to see signs/labels on items telling what it is.

Most importantly I want to see price tags. I'm not cheap nor poor but I find it's too akward to ask the sales girl how much each item is (on top of "what is that?"). I might want to buy 1 of ten different small items plus a couple of breads and it becomes embarassing asking after a couple of times. Then I've met sales girls who act as if that's anoying to them to answer.

I'm the sampler buyer...I love to try everything and can spend quite abit doing so each visit...but I'm not into asking tons of questions.

just my two cents...

[Isa]

Congratulations CJ!


Don't forget to cater to the health crowds. Many people are looking for low fat baked goods or whole grains. Might be worth looking into.

one last thing, don't forget to check out your competitions. Visit all the other bakeries and popular cafes or students hangouts and look at what is being served and what the customers are eating. It will give you some clues as to what people like in your area.


Good luck!

Then I've met sales girls who act as if that's anoying to them to answer.

Speaking of this...maybe also hire nice front-end customer service people? (As far as it is possible with you?) It really puts people off if those they have to deal with are rude - even if you make the best-tasting products in the world...well, that's my experience, anyway.

Although actually it probably wouldn't put me off because - well - foodisme . But in general it might put someone else off, perhaps? I know other people who are really uppity about service-with-a-smile...

fim

I take your point...I'd say I'd always choose 'service with a smile' if I had a choice.

Unfortunately I find that sometimes there is not a choice, without compromising on quality more than I am willing to...I mean, I'd lose something I can't afford to lose if I couldn't handle someone who - well, was having a difficult life?

Who knows but I might cheer up their day if I smile at them and they might smile at the next person?

(I'm not really thinking about restaurants though, as best I know, to imply that sometimes one has to choose between quality or friendly service - so no offense to chefs intended... ).

Hope that makes sense.

fim

[Pastachef]

I am uppity about 'service with a smile.' I worked in a mall once as a gift wrapper, and people were so impressed that I was so friendly that it got me put in the newspaper with my photo. I LOOK for service with a smile. If I get the nasty treatment from a business or vendor I usually go elsewhere or not at all.

[Mezzaluna]

CJ, congratulations!! And I think "breakfast mezzalunas" is a wonderful name- not surprisingly, eh? Here is some information about the biggest kringle maker in the U.S., I believe: http://www.kringle.com/ I've eaten my share of them. They are a local pastry made mostly in Racine, Wisconsin although there are several bakeries which make and sell them around Southeastern Wisconsin (in Kenosha and maybe Milwaukee, too). Texture of the dough varies from light and bread-like to dense and rich, more like thin pie dough. Fillings are usually fruit (cherry, raspberry, etc.) or nut (pecan!!!!), but I've also eaten a napolean style one made with puff pastry, and an eclair-style one with pastry cream filling and chocolate icing. They are usually glazed with plain sugar glazing. Kringles are usually race-track shaped, but they are also sold as "sticks" (a strip about 12" long). It is worth ordering one (or two or eight) to taste the product. The fruit and nut ones freeze very well. They can't be that hard to make, as a friend of mind had a job in at Lehman's Bakery in Racine making kringles while in high school.

Knishes are little dough pouches, not unlike steamed pork bun dim sums- although they are baked, not steamed and are NEVER filled with pork. Traditional fillings are mashed potato (often with crisply fried onion bits), mushroom and kasha, or ground leftover pot roast with mushrooms and a bit of gravy to moisten. I'm sure there are lots more! I had one once one filled with scrambled egg mixture, and I'm sure they are very versatile. If Joan Nathan doesn't have a recipe, try this: http://www.betterbaking.com/baker2/matters2kni.html or this: http://soar.berkeley.edu/recipes/cgi...?query=knishes
Here is a mail order site: http://www.newyorkfirst.com/gifts/9022.html

[CJ]

Hi there, did you miss me?

I have great news; we signed the sales agreement Wednesday! Apparently, the competitors didn’t pan out. Uh, no pun intended. There are still a couple of things to do on the financial/legal side, but I can see an end to that tunnel & a beginning to my new life.

Thank you all for your kind words of support & terrific suggestions. My experience with bakeries has been grounded in my hometown shop, so I’m always grateful for any other experience.

Thank you, Papa – I’m with you about the bread & croissants! I’m glad you mentioned coffee. Our town’s bakery never sold it, so that’s something that hadn’t occurred to me. One of my mentors owns a café, so I will throw myself on her mercy & expertise. My coffee tastes aren’t well-developed. I’d drink sludge if it were the only thing with caffeine. Personally, I prefer coffee toddy – mild taste, extra ZOOM!

W. – Good suggestion on the labels. I thought I was the only one who didn’t like pointing & grunting when I don’t know what something’s called. It makes me feel ignorant, and that’s poor way to build clientele. Ditto the prices. But I’ve seen so many bakeries without $that I’m going to research “why?” -if there’s a reason for it.

Great ideas & sites, Mezzaluna! Thanks so much – When trying out a new recipe, I’m unsure if that’s the way it’s supposed to taste. Ordering one (or eight ) of each could be considered research. Yeah, that’s the ticket! The knishes look like they’d be especially good for the health food crowd. This won’t be a kosher bakery, though– will that still be ok? Should I put a disclaimer on the tray, of would it just be assumed non-kosher unless it was labeled?

Fortunately, most of the local salespeople/ saleskids are very helpful & friendly. Rudeness, unhelpfulness are not options as far as I’m concerned. IMHO, common courtesy should be exactly that –common. It costs nothing, so should be given away freely. Attitude often has to do with the boss, and I’ve had both good and bad examples to learn from. I’ll start by setting an example when I deal with customers & employees.


Thank you all again & again! On to the next step!

[Mezzaluna]

Congratulations, CJ! You're off and running. I would definitely write off those 8 test kringles as a business expense. About kosher labelling: those who keep kosher would ask before purchasing anything. If you want to label them "kosher style", that would be fine. It means the ingredients aren't actually kosher, but the item is made from a kosher recipe. If you were a kosher establishment, you'd be inspected regularly by a certifying rabbi and would have a certificate and sign to post. I'm guessing you probably don't have much kosher-seeking traffic where you are. Don't worry about it. But please keep us posted as the business develops!

[Kimmie]

That's such great news CJ.

Good luck to you and your new business!