ChefTalk.com › ChefTalk Cooking Forums › Food and Cooking Forums › Food & Cooking Questions and Discussion › Glace de veau Viande, Espagnole, Demi-Glace
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Glace de veau Viande, Espagnole, Demi-Glace

post #1 of 28
8/24/04 at 8:30am
Thread Starter 
So, you have just crusted your dry marinated tenderloin in a hot pan, and removed them to the plate resting on your stove's shelf to keep them warm.

What would you prefer doing next?

Option 1
Add some butter and shallots. Deglaze with Dry Zack. Add some Demi-glace, and season with salt and pepper to taste; or,

Option 2
Add some butter and shallots, deglaze with Dry Zack. Add some water and Glace de veau Viande, season to taste with S&P?

Why?

What are situations where Glace de Viande is most appropriate as compared to a nice Demi-glace?

And while we're at it, is there ever a reason one would use an Espagnole Sauce rather than Demi-glace (assuming both are available?)

Thanks!

deltadoc
Reply
post #2 of 28
8/24/04 at 9:15am
If you use a Demi Glacé you need to have Espagnol anyway, you combine Espagnol with brown stock to make Demi. I use Glacé de viande to kick start certain sauces, and I love Foyot. Using the proper sauce means understanding the entire components and flavor profiles of your dish.If you want a brown sauce to help carry a flavor of your dish I would use a brown sauce as to not overpower a subtle flavor. Demi and GDV are time consuming and should be used with restraint. I tablespoon of GDV added to an Espagnol reduction will give great body and dept. I would not use it straight as it is to powerful.
Reply
post #3 of 28
8/24/04 at 11:01am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I spend entire weekends starting with browning veal and beef neck bones, making the brown stock, then canning some of the brown stock ( I actually have two stock pots going, one veal, one beef, and can them separately too), reserving enough of the stock to make the Espagnole sauce and still having enough stock left to go for the Demi-glace, once the brown sauce is completed. (I've heard that there are shortcuts eliminating the brown sauce step and going straight from stock to Demi-glace, but frankly, I love cooking so much I don't mind doing it in the traditional classic manner!)

I've also reduced left over stock down to GDV and put it in the freezer, frankly because we were running out of mason jars. :)

What I was trying to understand with my first post, was the subtleties of using one vs. another.
If I understand your reply, the Demi-glace is too flavorful for some dishes, where a simple brown sauce would be better? But didn't Auguste Escoffier describe Demi-Glace as "the perfection of brown sauce"?

Taking that at face value, then a simple Espagnole sauce would be "imperfect"?

And being like I am, I was wondering if ever there were ocassions where one would not prefer the "perfection of brown sauce" over "just brown sauce".

Thanks,
deltadoc
Reply
post #4 of 28
8/24/04 at 4:11pm
If I'm reading your methods correctly, there wouldn't be much difference. Cutting water into a glace de veau or a glace de viande would bring it closer to the strength of flavor of a demi made from fond de veau or a fond de viande. As Capechef said, using glace as a sauce by itself would be a bit much. Espagnol I would use for less haute cuisine dishes. Meatloaf comes to mind.

I wouldn't use demi (or would use it sparingly) if I were trying to showcase the flavor of a certain meat (Kobe beef, for example). I would probably just use a stock reduction and finish it with some whole butter or not use a sauce at all.
Reply
post #5 of 28
8/25/04 at 12:30am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for your reply.

I thought I was clear in Option 2 that in using the GDV it had to be cut with water if it was going to compete with the DG or ES. Nobody that ever saw a GDV would try to use it "uncut"!

Ah, the foibles of trying to express oneself via the written word.

Anyway, your comment about the Espagnole sauce with meatloaf, pretty much put it into perspective for me.

Kuan tells me that Espagnole and Bechamel went out 20 years ago to be replaced by Demi and cream sauces. This is what I thought I remembered reading too.

But he also confirms that it is important to remember how to do the "old" ways.

For me, its mostly just fun.

I'm trying to hone in on differentiating their appropriate uses. Neither Professional Cooking nor Professional Chef really were very explicit in the application of these different sauces/reductions.

I appreciate the responses that I got. Thanks for taking the time to post back on my questions.

dd
Reply
post #6 of 28
8/25/04 at 11:47am
Keep it up with using the classic methods. You'd be surprised how many people in the industry think that demi is just a heavily reduced stock (the shortcut you referred to earlier).
Reply
post #7 of 28
8/25/04 at 1:06pm
Thread Starter 

This weekend

Greg,
Thanks for that!

I've just ordered 12 lbs of veal neck bones and 12 lbs of beef neck bones from my friendly informative Byerly's butcher, Glenn, in St Paul. You may remember he is the one that gave me the info on Grinding Chuck. So, I had the idea to ask him to trim about 10lbs of chuck for me: put the bad stuff in one bag, and the rest in another, and I'll grind it this weekend. Also, going to use my new Food Saver to save the hamburger in. The bad stuff will get ground up last, and cooked for the kitties.

Hey Greg! If you're not doing anything this saturday or sunday, come on over and help me make the stock to espagnole to demi-glace!

I have a mighty fine wine and some nice tenderloin to go with it! Just don't call me Jeremiah! :) Ribbit...

deltadoc
Reply
post #8 of 28
8/25/04 at 9:11pm
I"ll be in Green Bay this weekend, so I have to pass (this time). Next time you make stock, I'm there; I love the smell of roasting bones!
Reply
post #9 of 28
8/25/04 at 9:48pm

Reference to Demi's being outdated

I am a sauce guy...I love it either sparingly or not so sparingly on MOST of my proteins...to enhance mind you...

As far as demi's going out or being out...I personally never believed in that thought process...I think for the most part traditional sauces started going out of the Western culinary scene due to laziness not cost or trends...It is definitely labor intensive of course...but who can beat the flavors?? It sure wasn't Knorr's with its "just add water" Demi-Glace that so many people bought into...

Augusta would roll over in his grave if he saw some of my fusions with the Mother Sauces, I always try to push the envelope and develop new flavors to change the aspect of my dishes...If he was in my kitchen and caught a spoon of my mint-infused miso demi for my lamb I would probably get my butt kicked, but that's the fun of it all...

Ain't it????????

Cheffy
Reply
post #10 of 28
8/25/04 at 9:50pm

oops

Boy did I misread that post or what...???? :eek:

Sorry about my last rant...I misread....
Reply
post #11 of 28
10/10/04 at 5:05pm
to all,

just to clarify, sauce espagnole and demi - glace are the same.

hans
Reply
post #12 of 28
10/10/04 at 5:25pm
?????

Are you saying Demi Glace and Sauce Espagnole are the same thing?
Reply
post #13 of 28
10/10/04 at 6:11pm
yes, at least in all old cookbooks, even in the Escoffier "le guide culinare", page 9 and 10.

Both are made with the base of a roux.

The only difference is, that the espagnole is made from a simple brown veal stock, and the demi - glace you start like making a brown veal stock, but instead of adding water you add a brown veal stock. This makes the demi - glace more flavorfull. But the base principle in the preparation and use are the same. [espagnole is cheaper]

hans
Reply
post #14 of 28
10/10/04 at 7:01pm
My copy of "Le Guide Culinaire" by Escoffier says "Demi-Glace/ This is the Espagnole sauce...obtained by reducing one quart of Espagnole and one quart of first-class brown stock until its volume is reduced to nine-tenths of a quart...is finished, away from the fire, with one-tenth of a quart of excellent sherry..."
Reply
post #15 of 28
10/10/04 at 7:17pm

Escoffier

interessting, my book is the 5th french edition, it does not mention under espagnole the use of sherry. i also checked the german translation, it says the same as in the french. the espagnole is simply a cheaper version of the demi glace.

by the way, it would be interesting to know, what does your translation says under demi - glace.

hans
Reply
post #16 of 28
10/10/04 at 7:52pm
Thread Starter 
Ah, I said it before, if Escoffier stated that "demi-glace is the perfection of Espagnole sauce", then is the perfection of any mother sauce still a mother sauce or is it a derivative sauce?

This is like arguing the Bible. IT's only been translated some 13 times from the original. How likely is it that due to colloquiallisms, and the inherent difficulties in capturing something said in Aramaic into ancient Greek and so forth able to accurately record what was being said in its original context and meaning?

Therefore, I say, A rose by any other name is still a rose, and do I love demi-glace!

doc
Reply
post #17 of 28
10/10/04 at 7:59pm
It doesn't mention sherry under Espagnole, the quote was from what it said about Demi-Glace.
Reply
post #18 of 28
10/10/04 at 8:41pm

mother sauce

doc,

you are rigth, the espagnole is a mother sauce, in translation into german, they state brown base sauce, and the demi glace can be translated as strong brown sauce, whereas the demi - glace traditionally is basically a deviation from the espagnol. today, we use brown veal stock, which is an espagnole without a roux.

hans
Reply
post #19 of 28
10/10/04 at 8:48pm

sherry

in my book under demi - glace it says, Madeira, well doc was rigth, the things get translated, information changes. what year is your translation.

hans
Reply
post #20 of 28
10/10/04 at 9:23pm
I actually have two translations. The one I referenced from was from 1969. The other one is from 1982 and it mentions finishing with sherry, port, or Madeira.
Reply
post #21 of 28
10/11/04 at 8:04am
Thread Starter 
Yeah, my translation of Escoffier's cookbook was produced in the '60's. I remember buying it in the early '70's, along with Craig Claiborne's Best of NY Times each for $1.

It only states Sherry for the demi-glace recipe. Reduce and add 10% sherry after taking off the fire, or something to that effect. I don't have it in front of me now.

doc
Reply
post #22 of 28
10/11/04 at 10:50am
Thread Starter 
Went home for lunch and took a look at my Escoffier book. 1969. Looked up the "half-glaze" recipe. Now wasn't this Escoffier a Frenchman writing in French back in the 1800's? What's the chance that his French "half-glaze" recipe specified 1 Qt measurements! :)

doc
Reply
post #23 of 28
10/14/04 at 10:19pm

to clarify demi glace

escoffier, was born 1847 and died 1935, to the best knowlege i have, he was swiss.

doc, the demi glace we are doing today is actuall logical, as we dont use sauce espagnole anymore since more than 40 years.

we roast the veal bones nice brown, we add mirepoix briefly roast, add tomato paste briefly roast, dust with flour, deglace with wine and reduce, add cold veal stock bring to simmer and cook for 4 hours.

so logically reading the procedure, no need to make an espagnol any more as the new version we do for quite some years combines the espagnole and the demi glace mentioned in the escoffier.

hans
Reply
post #24 of 28
10/15/04 at 12:09pm
Thread Starter 
I got curious and did a little research. Escoffier was born in 1846 in Villeneuve Loubet near Nice. He worked in France until 1884 when he moved to Monaco. Between 1884 and 1890 he split his time between Monaco and Switzerland. In 1890 he went to the Savoy in London. He left in 1898 to go to the Hotel Ritz in Paris. In 1899 he went back to London to the Carlton Hotel and was there until 1919. In 1903 he wrote Le Guide Culinaire. He died on Feb. 12, 1935 just days after his wife died.

Hope this wasn't too far off topic or anything.

doc
Reply
post #25 of 28
10/15/04 at 4:55pm

escoffier

doc,
that is great. i will poste some of it on the history section of this web site. however, based on my info he was born 1847. what is your reference . mine is 'vom lucullus zu escoffier' by harry schraemli.

hans
Reply
post #26 of 28
10/16/04 at 1:02am
Thread Starter 
I think I got it from the Tallyrand website from their Great Chef Bio section.

Type in "Tallyrand Culinary" on google to find the web site.


doc
Reply
post #27 of 28
10/16/04 at 3:58am
doc,

i saw it, also carem, but still for us he is an adopted swiss, the time he spent and thougth this alpin country, the way he made it with ritz. he left so much enthouiasm with us, that in the 1960, internationally most great chefs in hotels were from this alpine nation.

with this said we have to move on, i just answered a post today, about roasting a chicked, what i read, of all the ideas how to roast a chicken, and to check the doness. we truly should all start to talk about the cooking methods and techniques.

hans
Reply
post #28 of 28
4/23/12 at 4:12pm

just wanted to reply to the post about demi glace,,,  just looking through my esscoffier which is the first translation,,      it states that it can be made with wines  such as   sherry, port and madiera      just thought i would add that

Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
ChefTalk.com › ChefTalk Cooking Forums › Food and Cooking Forums › Food & Cooking Questions and Discussion › Glace de veau Viande, Espagnole, Demi-Glace