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Master Sauces - Page 2

post #31 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doubleofosiris View Post


Pete ailoi is not mayonaise , ugggghhhh such a naive ignorant mistake for a foodie/chef/anyone with a computer that loves food..... This is the one thing that pisses me off because I've had real aioli and I recognize the pain it is to make it.....
Aioli is a CONDIMENT not sauce, not derived from mayo. It is from Provence France it is done in a mortar and pestle, it is an emulsification of exactly what the name says(once again names do not lye) garlic, oil, sometimes lemon is added and egg yolk is added for a permanent emulsion. This is never perverted by adding anything else to it other then mustard and is only eaten with bread, nothing else.
Mayonaisse or correctly worded mahonaisse is a sauce or condiment created on an island off of Spain in a city called, get ready for this, MAHON, this is just a simple emulsification of egg yolk and oil and was created because the shortage of Milk on the island (too hilly or mountainous to raise cattle)
Tartar sauce is named after the tribe of called the tartars of the Ukraine west of the Mongolian tribes, steak tar tar is also named after them and they would eat the 2 together. They were a tribe that traveled on horseback they would put raw beef under their sattles with salt and oil, onions and wild herb in a pouch that hung off the side of the horse, as they traveled the beef was tenderized and the liquid in the pouch became emulsified. So that isnt really a "derivative" of mayo either..

But I'm not saying with today's technology all these sauces cant be made similarly to one another, so i can see where confution begins.... Hopefully I have cleared up some heads...

 

Oh boy... where do we start...I'm going to simply say for now that your interpretation is one based upon a fairly late 1700's plus viewpoint.  There are more and much earlier viewpoints.

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"Plus, this method makes you look like a complete lunatic. If you care about that sort of thing".  - Dave Arnold

 

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"Plus, this method makes you look like a complete lunatic. If you care about that sort of thing".  - Dave Arnold

 

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post #32 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by petalsandcoco View Post
 

 

I think we all understood what Pete said. 

 

Aioli is like mayonnaise. It is a sauce as far as I am concerned.

 

Only eaten with bread ? I could never limit my palate to just bread . What about a dipping sauce for seafood ? What about Le Grand Aioli, served with fish and vegetables, potatoes, eggs and some mullusks  ? 

 

As for the bread, yup, to wipe the dish and pop in mouth.

 

Labor intensive ? Hardly . Like any other sauce, technique.

 

Id say you´re both right. 

Here in Catalunya (part of Spain who claim inventing the alioli) people do separate between alioli made with and without egg. Alioli comes from the words for garlic and oil. A purist would say it should be without the eggyolk, but in most cases its made with. 

Without your make a paste of garlic, and then emulsify with oil. 

With its a garlic flavoured mayo. 

Still havent been to a/worked in restaurant that does it without the egg, not even the Michelin rated ones.

post #33 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelGA View Post
 

 

Oh boy... where do we start...I'm going to simply say for now that your interpretation is one based upon a fairly late 1700's plus viewpoint.  There are more and much earlier viewpoints.

I wonder what you mean Michael? What earlier viewpoints? 

 

In my experience in France, Aïoli is (and AFAIK always was) a garlic & oil emulsion, with or without emulsifiers such as mustard, yolk, potato or bread crumbs - while mayo with garlic added is just a garlic mayo. On the other hand, from what I've read on this forum, in the U.S. Aïoli is just mayo with added garlic. 

post #34 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljokjel View Post
 

Without your make a paste of garlic, and then emulsify with oil. 

With its a garlic flavoured mayo. 

Interesting distinction. To me, if you emulsify the garlic with the oil, the result is called Aïoli wether or not you used yolk. But if you emulsify yolks with oil and later add pureed garlic to it, then you're making a garlic flavored mayo. 

post #35 of 50

Jacque Pepin is laboring under the misconception that "Mayonnaise can become sauce ...and, of course, the well-known aioli," in his book Jacques Pepin's Complete Techniques.

 

Also I was under the impresssion that an emulsion is a mixture of two liquids that would ordinarily not mix together. Curious as to how this applies to oil and garlic.

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post #36 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by French Fries View Post
 

Interesting distinction. To me, if you emulsify the garlic with the oil, the result is called Aïoli wether or not you used yolk. But if you emulsify yolks with oil and later add pureed garlic to it, then you're making a garlic flavored mayo. 

Sorry. Bad formulation. Things gets mixed up by a Norwegian living in Catalunya writing in English.

 

I agree. 

My point was that even down here they are both called alioli. Im working for one of the most famous Michelinchefs in the country, and we make it by mixing garlic and egg, and emulsifying it. We even have another recipe containing milk.

How you write it depends on being spanish, catalan, english or whatever, and i dont really care. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheflayne View Post
 

Jacque Pepin is laboring under the misconception that "Mayonnaise can become sauce ...and, of course, the well-known aioli," in his book Jacques Pepin's Complete Techniques.

 

Also I was under the impresssion that an emulsion is a mixture of two liquids that would ordinarily not mix together. Curious as to how this applies to oil and garlic.

By making a garlic paste and then carefully adding oil, you are able to emulsify it. It is as Doubleofosiris says more difficult and timeconsuming than making it using eggyolk, but it is absolutely doable. 

post #37 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheflayne View Post
 

 I was under the impresssion that an emulsion is a mixture of two liquids that would ordinarily not mix together. Curious as to how this applies to oil and garlic.

The juices from the crushed garlic subjected to the action of the mortar and pestle is emulsified with the olive oil.

post #38 of 50

I understand the process but am questioning it being an emulsion. Not a big deal, really, just semantics more than anything else.

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post #39 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by French Fries View Post
 

The juices from the crushed garlic subjected to the action of the mortar and pestle is emulsified with the olive oil.

 

I could live with that interpretation.

post #40 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheflayne View Post
 

I (...) am questioning it being an emulsion.

I'm not sure why you are questioning it. You said an emulsion is "a mixture of two liquids that would ordinarily not mix together". Garlic juice and oil wouldn't ordinarily mix together, and Aïoli is a mixture of both. 

 

Anyway, even if you put science and technique aside, Aïoli tastes like a garlic infused sauce, whereas a garlic-mayo tastes like a sauce with pureed garlic added to it. Kinda like hot cocoa vs hot milk with bits of chocolate floating around in it. 

post #41 of 50

Are olive oil mashed potatoes an emulsion?

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post #42 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheflayne View Post
 

Are olive oil mashed potatoes an emulsion?

I suppose that if you beat a bit of potato in a mortar and pestle with oil, you can emulsify the water from the potato along with the oil. I'm not sure the result would be very interesting since AFAIK the water from a potato doesn't have a very strong potato taste. But when making mashed potatoes, you don't use a mortar and pestle, and you use way more potatoes than you do oil. So I suppose some of the potato water may emulsify with the oil? Not sure. 

 

I'm not claiming to be an expert at science, but what about taste: do you really feel that garlic mayo and Aïoli taste the same? They certainly don't taste the same to me. My understanding is that in the case of Aïoli the garlic taste is emulsified with the oil, which carries it throughout every single droplet of the sauce, whereas in a garlic mayo, the emulsification is already made when the pureed garlic is added, and therefore you have small amounts of garlic puree floating around in the sauce, but the sauce itself doesn't taste of garlic. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this clearly hence the previous example I shared of a broken cocoa mix (think powdered cocoa that is added to cold milk, and where you can still spot the little brown cocoa dots in the white milk) as opposed to a perfectly emulsified hot cocoa (where the liquid has a uniform light brown color). 


Edited by French Fries - 4/7/14 at 7:41pm
post #43 of 50

Please Michael, enlighten me....

post #44 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuan View Post
 

 

I could live with that interpretation.

me too! 

post #45 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by French Fries View Post
 

I'm not sure why you are questioning it. You said an emulsion is "a mixture of two liquids that would ordinarily not mix together". Garlic juice and oil wouldn't ordinarily mix together, and Aïoli is a mixture of both. 

 

Anyway, even if you put science and technique aside, Aïoli tastes like a garlic infused sauce, whereas a garlic-mayo tastes like a sauce with pureed garlic added to it. Kinda like hot cocoa vs hot milk with bits of chocolate floating around in it. 

very true, once again nice interpretation ha ha..

 

basically the majority of garlic juice is water with other aromatic components inside, water and oil doe not mix(surprise, surprise) but can be emulsified like any 2 polar solvents, without an emulsifier this is called a temporary emulsification, add an emulsifier like mustard etc; it becomes a semi permanent emulsion, add lecithin(component in egg yolk) it become a permanent emulsion

 

if used right and you take your time working the garlic with in the mortar and pestle garlic juices "other components" break down and become emulsifiers so a permanent emulsion is reached...

   

 

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post #46 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheflayne View Post
 

Are olive oil mashed potatoes an emulsion?

yes, it is a form of an emulsion. 

post #47 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by French Fries View Post
 

I'm not claiming to be an expert at science, but what about taste: do you really feel that garlic mayo and Aïoli taste the same? They certainly don't taste the same to me. My understanding is that in the case of Aïoli the garlic taste is emulsified with the oil, which carries it throughout every single droplet of the sauce, whereas in a garlic mayo, the emulsification is already made when the pureed garlic is added, and therefore you have small amounts of garlic puree floating around in the sauce, but the sauce itself doesn't taste of garlic. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this clearly hence the previous example I shared of a broken cocoa mix (think powdered cocoa that is added to cold milk, and where you can still spot the little brown cocoa dots in the white milk) as opposed to a perfectly emulsified hot cocoa (where the liquid has a uniform light brown color). 

^ exactly how i feel!

post #48 of 50
Quote:
 ~~It is from Provence France it is done in a mortar and pestle, it is an emulsification of exactly what the name says(once again names do not lye) garlic, oil, sometimes lemon is added and egg yolk is added for a permanent emulsion. This is never perverted by adding anything else to it other then mustard and is only eaten with bread, nothing else.

 

I've seen aïoli made in the France Provence on a number of occasions. It's indeed done in a (very large) mortar, but the pestle is only used to crush the (horribly abundant!) cloves of fresh garlic and turn that into a paste. From then on the pestle is no longer used but eggyolk and oil are added while digging one hand in the sauce and use the hand to beat. Eaten with bread only? I don't think so. It's served with raw vegetables, hardboiled eggs and potatoes etc. The mortar goes on the table and everyone dips their bites of food in it.

 

But, say I make my aioli just like I make a mayo; use a tall narrow mixing recipient, add garlic crushed into a paste using the side of a knife and some course salt, add 2 eggyolks, a tsp of mustard, a squeeze of lemon juice, 350 ml of neutral oil (you could use olive oil but I dont'), plunge a stick mixer in it and turn into what? I'm quite sure this is a perfect aioli. It's also more or less exactly like you described it in the quote above...

 

Now, leave the garlic out and you have a perfect... mayo. My point is; mayo and garlic or garlic and mayo both make a very good aioli. The concentration of garlic does the trick, not how you make it.

 

Maybe you need to understand that only some decades ago, when many people didn't have a fridge, that in hotter areas like the south of France and especially in Andalucia in Spain, eggs were not often used in these mayo-type preparations, simply for the fact that it was a health risk. So, the original aioli would most likely have been; garlic and oil, a very unstable concoction that many times split by the time it came to the table. In Andalucia there are still many recipes for making mayo without using eggs, but using milk.

post #49 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisBelgium View Post
 

 

I've seen aïoli made in the France Provence on a number of occasions. It's indeed done in a (very large) mortar, but the pestle is only used to crush the (horribly abundant!) cloves of fresh garlic and turn that into a paste. From then on the pestle is no longer used but eggyolk and oil are added while digging one hand in the sauce and use the hand to beat. 

Traditionally, the mortar and pestle is also used to "monter l'Aïoli" (meaning to beat the emulsion and give the sauce its body). In fact the tradition says that once the pestle can stay standing up in the mortar, then you've reached the proper consistency. 

post #50 of 50

Mother Sauces …. :)

Just today I have learned about this acronym :) its so useful :) I have been always got confused about the sauces classification :) so this acronym saved my life :) 

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