keeping children out

Raise your prices. Require reservations only with a credit card and consider the meal paid for when the reservation is made. There are a few restaurants like that. Do you really want to become one of those?

I understand you're trying to keep some kind of sanity in the dining area, but why would you deny an affluent and growing market a chance at a nice meal?

I'll tell you that 2004 was not my year. In mid-January 2004 a place that i had been at closed, out of business, in late January. There had been rumors of the demise, but it all came very suddenly to an end.
My guess is this... in AAA they were three diamond. They were not in Zagats but I believe they were in Mobil, at least a while ago. I would describe the food as down-to-earth, but somewhat upscale. They never catered to family trade. In July 2003 NY banned smoking in all indoor public places. Guests were seated in the old smoking section if they had children, non-smoking if they did not. Not a writen policy, but this is the way it was, and for good reason. Before the smoking ban, I must say the number of children was about 1/3 less and certainly better kids. Seems all these GenX mommies and daddies started coming out of the woodwork when Jr was no longer even remotely close to some evil smokers (I'm an ex-smoker for 4 years and detest smoking). At least in the smoking section your were likely to be "kid free".
They thought this would work out. Problem was there was enough of a surge of older GenXers and younger boomers (let's say 36-42) with enough kids to make things go sour. Who wants a $5.95 hot dog / mac & cheese kid seated while a $23.95 beef wellington customer walks away unwillingto wait or sit next to the loud kid?
We just weren't getting our target customer. The last half of 2003 slid further down. I believe this is the reason they closed.
I went to work for a steak & seafood restaurant. The original larger location was my job. They closed in October. The smaller, newer location is still open. The prices were higher at the 2nd location. Parking was poor there, perfect for a hipper kid free crowd. I believe kids were the reason for closing the location I worked at.
I worked at a bar and grill for a month. Because they are a bar more than a grill, no one under 18 was allowed in. Every bartender/waitress was an ex-stripper and they were expected to dress slutty. About 1/3 women and 2/3 men clients. Think of it as a raunchy Hooters wannabee.
Now we have four chains about to open in town. One being Hooters. Until a better place has an opening (and the chains stop pouring into the market smothering places) Hooters will have to be good enough.
I worked a few days for the holiday at a small place as a temporary employee. I get the feeling they too can not / are not reaching out to their sophisticated base and in a slow demise too. There is no profit serving "families" and couponers.

It's not surprising that restaurant went out of business. Treat everyone with equal respect and they will reciprocate. Treat people with kids as a second class diner and you will not get them back. Great customer relations. Who was the genius who thought that up?

The Eagle's Nest, in the American Club here in Singapore have two dining sections.
To the left, is a more elegant design, with carpet flooring. And to the right, is more of a coffee house sort of look, with parquet flooring.
I thought that was a clever idea, to accomodate all sorts of diners, couples, rowdy kids, families with bawling kids, etc etc. Kinda like a, noisy, or a non-noisy section.
I do realize that this means you will need a bigger space, but I thought this might inspire a reshuffle in your layout, should space permit.

I don't have an insider view, rather an outsider view--with kids.

For years now, we've received compliments from staff and other customers on our kids when eating out. While I don't think we did anything special, we do expect our kids to have manners at home, not just at restaurants.

We eat together at least once, usually twice per day. No TV during dinner and so on. That was the tradition in my family when I grew up and my friends and their parents simply couldn't comprehend doing it. It is a commitment, but a very enjoyable one for all.

Just as some dog owners let their dogs poop anywhere and don't clean it up, some parents are just as irresponsible with their kids. It's easy to blame the dog for the owner's mistake. I think the key is the parents, not so much the kids, though there are a few kids that would be a terrror no matter the parents.

There are fancier restaurants I don't take my kids to. But our repeat FAMILY business goes to restaurants--upscale restaurants--that welcome us. And for our budget, we drop some good money there on food and tips.

In the face of parents failing to teach their kids proper behavior and etiquette, a restaurant is in a tough position. Poorly behaved guests drive away good guests in a self perpetuating cycle. The graciousness expected of a restaurant is abused by these customers.

I suppose a restaurant needs to cultivate the clientele it prefers. I don't know if this would work but I'd approach it in a passive-aggressive positive reinforcement method were I operating a restaurant. Compliment well behaved guests in the hearing of the poorly behaved guests. Make them and their well-behaved children feel welcome. Apologize to good guests who were abused by the unruly, again within earshot of the unruly. Let the good ones know they are appreciated and in so doing indicate to the jerks that they are jerks. Some won' t get it, I know, but you can't let yourself be ruled by the rude.

Phil

"there is a good chance that their experience will be spoiled by crying, noisy, or just plain poorly behaved children"
I have had guests dining experience spoiled by the same behavior from poorly behaved adults. Poor behavior is just that. You can't screen for it, all you can do is try to alleviate it for the greater good. In an extreme case, after ejecting a poorly behaving guest, I actually got a standing ovation from the remaining guests. Some of my best repeat guests have young children that are very well behaved. It ain't the age, it's the attitude.

Wow! Hot topic... my 2-cents:
I am a parent and I am a good customer at good restaurants.
I expect my children to behave at restaurants or they are taken from the table until they are under control. At casual restaurants they are usually in the company of other children talking or playing, just as adults talk loudly. That said, I do not take my children to high-end restaurants because I would not want somebody else's meal disrupted by my children. I do not want somebody's elses children to disrupt my experience. But, that is not the whole story; adults, as well, can be loud and disruptive.
How do my wife and I deal with our children at restaurants? Well, it is OUR responsibility to care for our childrens' actions; we plan ahead and exercise our parenting skills to the best of our ability. We make sure that the kids have some type of snack before going to the restaurant (so they aren't fussy) and we bring things to keep them busy (backpack with crayons, games, etc).
So, there it is. If it is a restaurant that has a tablecloth, it does not have kids. either way, we manage out children as we would keep control of ourselves. It is our responsibility and nobody else's. If the restaurant chooses to remove kid-friendly food or accomodations for our children, that is certainly well within thier scope. We would just not be able to patronize the establishment. Why would I want to go somewhere where the majority of family is not welcome? It's not the restaurant's fault, just their mission. I don't fault them for that, I just won't go there with my kids.

Hey oh

Well, I guess I can relate my own horror stories here as well. Like the time I was thunked in the head by whipped potatos. That was a nightmare experience. We had alread begun eating when in came Bertha and her Brewd. Most of that families food wound up on the floor, I don't think the adults watching the kids ate, for that matter I don't think the kids ate. I never returned to that establishment.

It is an ideology that has become entrenched in north american society. The idea that humans are children as long as they live at home, and that now stretching into their thirties. And while a child is at home, they bear little to no responsiblity for themselves or their lot in life.

I know that I am in a minority here in saying this. But this was the truth of life untill the mid 1800's. And we as a specise servived well enough this way for thousands of years.

13/14 your an adult. Eat, sleep, drink, drive, vote, got to war, get married, adult. All that has happened by succesive generations saying "Oh no, not my Billie, Billie is to young to be an adult" is reckless parents that are doing the poor job or creating reckless little monsters that are now crowding our jails and judicial systems.

We have become bereft of responsability.

I do aplaud parrents that buck this trend. That take the time to dissiplin their kids, and to educate their kids in the propper aproach to courteouse human interaction.

Jim, unless your kids were kidnapped by faeries and replaced by ill-behaved tots, I can't imagine your lovely children being anything but well-behaved! (I can attest to this, having witnessed Jim's children's excellent manners and behavior a few years ago.)

I agree with Cheflayne. Age is no barrier to rudeness, nor to civility. Boors come in all ages, all social classes, all cultures. Same for charming people.

:blush: :blush: :blush: (a 'blush' for each one... Thanks Ann!)

My four-year-olds' favorite restaurant is a pizza parlor down the street. He likes to play with the balls on the pooltable. When we go to a high-end restaurant, I personally like to keep my kids at home with a sitter and get them a movie and a pizza. That is more fun for them than going out and having to listen to grown-ups drone on and on. And my kids are pretty well behaved....at times....
At our restaurant we don't have a kids' menu. We do have boosters and highchairs and will do half sized portions or a pbj sandwich for picky eaters. But to not want kids in our place? That sounds a little rude to be telling people not to bring kids. I can't think of a single incident where kids have been so disruptive that we have gotten complaints from other customers. And there have been a few disruptive kid incidents in the past eight years. Once, when three ladies came in with nine kids, the oldest of which was maybe four, and attempted to have lunch together, they ended up getting food to go since the kids all were whining because they wanted McDonalds' food and to go run around in the park and did not want to sit. My take is when people see parents with unruly kids the most common feeling is one of sympathy. Or pity.

Speaking as a parent of 2, well, we're not a good example. My children were raised in restaurants, and uderstood proper behavior in them since before they could walk or talk. Too bad they can't all be as marvelous as mine ;)

As a restaurant owner, I can tell you that what we do is speak directly to the children in a kind but succinct manner, and always within earshot of the parents. Once mom overhears "I need you to sit down quietly please, sweetie, 'cuz we move pretty fast here and we don't want you to get hurt" then both the kid and the parent learn a valuable lesson. Most are perfectly pleased to do their part to lasso the kids after that. none have ever been insulted and no customers have ever complained about annoying kids in my place, so it must work OK.