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Veal Stock and demi-glace

post #1 of 57
4/2/06 at 5:02pm
Thread Starter 
In preparation for making demi-glace I'll be making my first batch of veal stock shortly. The 1990 edition of the New York Times Cookbook has a recipe that calls for 1 large (3-4 pound) veal knuckle and 1 1/2 lbs veal, cut into pieces. The best, and as far as I know, the only decent retail butcher in town is Charlie's Meat Market. When I go there tomorrow I'm afraid someone will say something like, last I checked veals don't got fingers. What part of the carcass exactly do you want? What is a knuckle exactly? (I usually don't have problems coming up with my own smart alec answers.) As for the 1 1/2 lbs. of veal - what part of the animal do I want for that?

Chef Kaiser's Demi-glace recipe calls for calves feet 0.100 kg (cut into walnut size). Would I sound like an idiot if I asked for about a quarter lb of calf foot or would it be less dumb to ask for a whole foot cut into walnut size pieces? How much does a foot weigh, give or take?

Finally, I know someone will ask what I'm going to do with demi-glace. I could say I'll use it to make rice brown, but what other uses does it have for the home cook?

I put this in a new thread so as not to drag down the intellectual level of the professional conversation on this topic in another thread. Proofreading this it sounds, even to me, like one long wisecrack but that's not how I intend it. The answers to any or all of the above will greatly appreciated.
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post #2 of 57
4/2/06 at 6:30pm
They don't mean knuckle as in finger knuckle. Knuckle in this context is more like a joint. Think like elbows or knees. It's a place where two bones meant in joint. You usually have lots of connective tissue in these areas, so they are rich in gelatin, and thus highly desirable for stock making. :-)
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post #3 of 57
4/2/06 at 6:55pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks ghost. I was thinking along those lines, but a 3 to 4 lb joint seems like a pretty big knee or elbow. Even if I think in terms of the upper joint in a butt end ham which I think is a hogs upper leg and hip ball joint it still seems like a lot. Of course, while I've had a pig and a calf, I've never had a pet veal.:D
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post #4 of 57
4/2/06 at 7:23pm
hi,

I just gave you a base recipe of 1 liter. Therefore you also can multiply the recipe by 10 or 100, what ever volume you want. Why do we cut bones and feet into walnut size - is simply to have more browning surface and i dont need to cook the demi glace for 8 plus hours, as many recipe say. Actual you can save a great deal of electricity.

regards
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post #5 of 57
4/2/06 at 7:42pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks Chef
Since I'm a home cook who lives alone I don't think I'll increase by factors of 10 but it's good to know that one could. I wish I could picture a calf foot. Aren't they hoofs? If the butcher is out of foot will any other part do?

I'm guessing that demi-glace might be used in the home anywhere one might otherwise use a reduced stock. Right track?

I keep a hack saw on the wall to cut ham bones for beans to a similar end. I'll try to get the butcher to cut up the foot (feet).

What part of the animal would produce a 3 to 4 lb veal knuckle?

Thanks again for your patience and generosity.
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post #6 of 57
4/2/06 at 8:24pm
hi,

Well you know it depends a little, where in the world you are living and the use of butchery terminologies, call it also fore or hind shank. As with knuckle many refer to pork knuckle only, may be we should all use the american meat buyers guide, so we all speak the same language.

regards
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post #7 of 57
4/2/06 at 8:53pm
I feel a need to intrject a thought here...A basic veal stock certainly is not rocket science, but rather an act of love. My advice here is, for the cook ay home, to make at least five gallons...to reduce down one third before straining and then freeze in quart batches. As far as method goes, that's where the love comes in. "Chef Kaiser", I understand that you must have a very direct recipe that you adhere to. That's fine. However, you must know that there are many variables that can quickly "change the weather" in your kitchen, therefore you must be able to adapt. I recomend having a basic knowledge of what makes a veal stock and henceforth, how to make its primary derivative, beef demi glace.

Skilletlicker...Once you figure out how much stock you want to end up with after eight hours (minimum) of simmering, reduce your product with a second mire poix saute and red wine deglazing to the point where (after skimming frequently), your finished product has naturally thickened to a light syrup consistency...then season it...strain it again through a fine chinoise.

There has been much written on this topic by many of our culinary forefathers, but the concept is simple and pure. No need here to get all high minded...just love what you are making and it will show in your end product. Take your time and have fun with it.
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post #8 of 57
4/2/06 at 9:12pm
Thread Starter 
Travisbickle,

Thanks, I think I'm getting it.

One clarification that you or Chef Kaiser could clear up. When he said foot I think I got fixated on that. but when he said is he explaining that what he meant by foot was the veal equivalent of a ham hock? If so that would make more sense to me. Assuming that's correct would I ask the butcher for veal shank?
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post #9 of 57
4/2/06 at 9:24pm
Hey Skillet...Yeah, man you want the bones that are cleavered in a way that the marrow will seep out whille they are roasting. "Feet"??? I've never ordred feet from my supplier. When it comes to veal bones, I say: "Cleavered bones". Because when you roast them, you want to pull out the marrow and at the same time, color the outside of the bone. The marrow will want to stick to your roasting pan. So after you remove the bones to your stock pot, you deglaze your roasting pan (I like a nice dry red wine that I would actualy drink...) and scrape up all those great little bits ad add them to your stock.

I don't know where you would want "feet". Unless...you were going to pickle them and sell them to tourists as a delicasy?
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post #10 of 57
4/2/06 at 9:31pm
Hi Skillet,

I'll certainly be awaiting the answers along side with you.


Don't forget to check some of the smaller grocery stores near your house. We have a Polish grocery store within a 35 minute drive that carries a good amount of Veal shanks and cut veal bones as well. I can't remember...but I'm thinking the cut veal bones were around a buck a pound. The shanks a bit more...but still not outrageous.

From time to time I'll make some veal stock and other times some glacé dE viande, which I'll use as an addition for those sauces that I want to add a little something special.

ChefTalk article; Preparing Stocks

ChefTalk article; How to Make a Brown Stock

Glace de veau Viande, Espagnole, Demi-Glace (ChefTalk Forum Thread)

Being quite ignorant on several subjects in life myself...I feel I can give some advice ;) Let your butcher know how ignorant you are. If you try to BS him with knowledge you don't have...he's likely to hand you only what you order. But ask him a question that your not sure of...he may give you a lesson as well :)

Let us know how it turns out>>>
dan
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post #11 of 57
4/2/06 at 9:38pm
Thread Starter 
Travisbickle,
Should the veal stock be the consistency of light syrup while still hot in the pot. I'm thinking of the way my chicken stock thickens when cooled.

What should the consistancy of the demi-glace be?
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post #12 of 57
4/2/06 at 9:50pm
Skillet...A true demi is a reduction of the veal stock with a secondary mire poix. Glace means glass. It should shimmer like a mirror, which means no cheating!!! I.E.; NO FLOUR! NO STARCH! This is a true reduction and is only seasoned at the very last moment to accompany a dish. You can mass produce a good "demi" and then freeze it and add it to, say, marsala sauces, any pan sauce you may be doing with a beef dish, or whatever your creative "inner chef" says to do! Have fun with it!
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post #13 of 57
4/2/06 at 10:01pm
Thread Starter 
Travisbickle,
Veal stock like light syrup hot on the stove and jello in the ice box?
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post #14 of 57
4/2/06 at 10:03pm
I just saw that I didn't answer your question...After you strain your veal stock, reduce it by HALF. Strain again (I hope you have been skimming like a good boy...). It should be dark in color, "roasty" in aroma, and beefy in taste. When it cools (Have you strained it via a spicket? Or by ladeling it through a chinoise?), any fat on the top, remove by hand/finger. It should be very gelatin-like in its cold state. That's how you know you did it right. Now...assemble a mirepoix comensurrate to the ammount of veal stock you want to convert and saute until slightly brown. Deglaze your large rondoue with red wine and add your veal stock you labored over with love. Reduce by half and strian agaiin through a fine mesh. Season as you wish for garnishing steaks, or use as a flavor for other sauces.
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post #15 of 57
4/2/06 at 10:12pm
Veal foot is hoof. You want them in your stock because they add collagen, the protein that thickens your stock.
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post #16 of 57
4/2/06 at 10:26pm
Thread Starter 
Travisbickle,
You are a gentleman and a scholar and I am in your debt.

Plongeur,
Ok, so that explains the small % of foot to finished product in Chef Kaiser's formula. Would it matter whether a hoof came from a calf, cow or steer? If the butcher happened to be out of hoof what alternative sources of collagen would you ask for? Is the hoof used only to develop the stock into demi-glace or would you use it to make the stock as well? Is this a cost saving ingredient as opposed to say the collagen that might come from a hip or shoulder joint?
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post #17 of 57
4/2/06 at 10:38pm
Plongeur helped with the science to a point. The idea is that you want to get the best for your money, even when you are just buying bones. The gelatin...that's the good stuff...along with a good roasting! Point being, be picky! Even when you are buying bones. If you ask for "cleavered" bones, inspect them before you hand them your money. Be shrewd. If you have any friends that are professional cooks, ask them to take you on a "field trip" one day...with promise of much beer and food later...in order to learn first hand, walking through a market. Have fun with it!
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post #18 of 57
4/2/06 at 10:46pm
Yes! Exactly!
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post #19 of 57
4/2/06 at 11:01pm
Skillet...you want what's inside the bones mostly. Leg bones cut small...those are "candy" (All P.E.T.A. memebers, plug your ears, and take a huge bite of delicious, young veal chop. Has the Earth crumbled yet? Oh...maybe it's those weapons of mass destruction that will kill us all and not the consumption of animal product that we should worry about? MAKE VEAL STOCK!!! Veal chops, center cut pork loin stuffed with aged gouds and bacon; leg of lamb stuffed with feta and wrapped with applewood smoked bacon...If it tastes good, EAT IT! Life is short.
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post #20 of 57
4/2/06 at 11:03pm
Thread Starter 
Dan,
Good to hear from you!
As you well know, I have no aversion to public confessions of ignorance. Generally, however, I prefer others to call it a lack of knowledge.:D
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post #21 of 57
4/3/06 at 12:05am
hi,

well myself i am not that much after the bone marrow, i am after the protein in the bones and the tendons. That is what gives you a nice meat glaze after reducing. the best bones and tendons are the once of young animals.

well each has its own way.

regards
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post #22 of 57
4/3/06 at 1:54am

Feet / Shank / Knuckle

Lets clarify the terminologies of “Calves Feet”

It seems that you don’t see that in your butcher shops any more. However you may still have the pig’s trotter or also called fore foot and hind foot (American meat buyers guide).


The calf feet is basically the same part and has still the skin on. You don’t eat this part, as it consists basically only of bone and skin, however is loaded with protein and therefore ideal for the preparation of white or brown veal stocks or demi – glace.

The whole veal shank - well if you can afford, it can be used too, but I rather would make Osso Buco from it, or use the bones of it only for the veal stock.


Regards
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post #23 of 57
4/3/06 at 7:03am
Like I mentioned in my other posts, if you don't have calves feet, you can use turkey or chicken wing tips. These too, are loaded with collagen and will lend the smooth suave texture and natural gelatine you're after.

You can also use pigs feet, which are easier to find. These would be be split down the middle (meat bandsaw) and blanched first. However. However pork is pork. I have worked in S.E Asia and respect the religous views of the Muslims, I also respect the religous views of the Jews. Don't know who will be eating my sauce, so in my kitchen I won't use it for this reason only. If it's for your private use, why not?
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post #24 of 57
4/3/06 at 7:57am
Foodpump...good point. You can make a delicious roasted poultry stock in the same manner you would make a veal stock using the backs and necks of the birds. I have also made wonderful vegetable stocks with roasted product, but you don't get lovely gelatin goodness as if you used animal protein.
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post #25 of 57
4/3/06 at 2:55pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks to everybody who spent part of last night helping me figure out what cut of veal to ask for.
The search mission today included two meat markets, including the one generally acknowledged to be the "best in town," two major and one minor chain mega-markets, a Mexican grocery with a meat counter, a Middle Eastern grocery with a meat counter and one membership only warehouse store.
Not one establishment had any veal whatsoever. Three places are going to order it but I'm not too hopeful. Two of them didn't know what veal is and neither my Spanish nor Farsi was good enough to explain it. Truth is, I don't even know what it is in English (young over-fed cattle?).
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post #26 of 57
4/3/06 at 3:00pm

hi, fun shall it be to be a chef

hi Foodpump,

i absolutley agree. Further i can add for those who can not get veal bones that easy, use beef bones, like we use out here very often or better said mainly, as veal bones are imported and bloody expensive. Just make sure get as much joint bones + tendons (cut in walnut size) as possible and ensure to roast them very well. If done right you get a good base stock or sauce (demi glace). Note: it is very important to cut the bones and tendons in small pieces if you use beef bones, as the result is better.

regards
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post #27 of 57
4/3/06 at 4:02pm
Thread Starter 
The incredible thing is, the meat markets don't have the joints. They get their meats butchered in chunks between the joints and all they do is slice it. This was explained to me today by a meat manager in the higher end megamart I went to. I asked him for a beef hip or shoulder joint. He looked at me funny and led me to the rump roasts. I said where's the joint. He said we don't get that part. I asked for a knee or elbow. He said he just gets a piece butchered above the knee and below the hip. I can buy beef shanks or oxtails. So far, thats as close as I've been able to get.
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post #28 of 57
4/3/06 at 5:21pm
Thread Starter 
Charlie's is the meat market that literally everyone I've talked to says is the best. They've been in business here since since 1967. They were my first stop today. Tonight I was thinking maybe I didn't ask them about beef joints like I did the super market manager because I was still hoping to find veal. I just called back and talked to Charlie's son Chuck who explained that they haven't had swinging beef in years. I asked about my options and he reminded be of short ribs which can be added to the short list including shanks and oxtails. He also gave me the name of a buddy in an adjoining county who does custom slaughters and might have joints to dispose of. Those were the whole extent of his suggestions.

Folks out there - is this the same where you live? Have we found a need waiting for some entrepreneur to fill?
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post #29 of 57
4/3/06 at 6:27pm
Skilletlicker: Now we've done it, we've gone and got you hooked!

Remember James Garner in "The Great Escape"? Well, that's what alot of us Chefs are like: Constantly angling and scheming to find the best stuff, original stuff, certified organic stuff, hormone free stuff, the best prices; sales reps who don't slobber all over you, treat you like garbage, or think you don't know anything. But I'm not complaining, it's a fun challange, the longer you're in the game the more you learn about everything, and the more contacts you make.

Sounds like you're off to a good start. Chuck's giving you genuine information and isn't brushing you off, keep him in your "active" file. Just because he doesn't have what you want right now, doesn't mean he won't have what you want,-or know where to get what-, later on.

Main thing is to have fun. If you aren't having fun then it's work, and that's no fun...
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post #30 of 57
4/3/06 at 6:28pm
Thread Starter 
Gentlemen,

My team got knocked out of the NCAA tourney so I've got time on my hands tonight. I can't get veal and I can't get beef joints but what do you think of this plan? Isn't there a lot of collagen drawn out of braised chuck roast. I love shredded braised chuck. Would the leftover liquid simmered for a few hours with roasted beef shank bones and a few veggies be anything near to a decent brown stock?
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