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Veal Stock and demi-glace - Page 2

post #31 of 57
hi,

sure go ahead, and later once you can get bones, try out all recommendations given above.

regards
post #32 of 57
Uh...by whose definition is a "true demi" a reduction of veal stock with a secondary mire poix and no flour or starch? Certainly not Escoffier...his recipe is to make the stock, then make the Espagnole sauce which is stock with mirepoix and roux (starch and fat), then equal parts of Espagnole and Stock reduced down with the addition of some dry wine (different editions specify different dry wines Sherry, etc.)

doc
post #33 of 57
Skilletlicket, your butcher or grocer should be able to order them for you, if they care to make the effort. Also, if your friendly with any local restaurants, they can order from their supplier, like Sysco, etc. Thats what I do.

Tony
post #34 of 57
Dear Deltadoc,

Would it be possible to know the book, you get the recipe from, of what you are saying is a Demi - Glace. It would be interesting to know, as it seems, that my chef 30 years ago (he was 40 at the time and a culinary crafts teacher in Switzerland too for more than 30 years before he retired just the other year) did teach me wrong. Further all the other Swiss Chefs since would practize the wrong recipe too. Actually most German and Austrain Chefs would all do it wrong too, as all our apprentice books in the 3 year culinary appreticeship program in the three countries mention the same base recipe of the Demi - Glace.

Regards
post #35 of 57
To answer your question, the source of the recipe is:

The Escoffier Cook Book and guide to the Fine Art of Cookery (An American translation of the definitive Guide Culinaire)

Crown Publishers, 1969

Recipe 22 Espagnole Sauce (annotated for brevity sake)
1 lb of brown roux dissolved in 6 qts. of brown stock, eventually adding tomatoes and about 1 lb of Mirepoix

Recipe 23 Half Glaze (Demi-Glace) (Slightly annotated for brevity's sake)
Obtained by reducing about 1 Qt. of Espagnole Sauce and 1 Qt of first-class brown stock until its volume is reduced to 9/10's of 1 Qt. to which you add 1/10 Qt of fine Sherry.

Regards,
doc
post #36 of 57
The point about veal, as opposed to cow, feet (hooves, OK) is that they're younger and haven't developed into hard bone - young veal bones are still growing and are full of collagen, which is what will make your stock nice and jellified when you reduce it, give it body. Anthony Bourdain has a nice recipe for it which doesn't take for ever in his Les Halles cookbook, sensible quantities for the home cook.

--

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http://eatsleepcookschool.wordpress.com - The true story of the year I spent learning how to be a professional cook at catering school in Avignon, Provence, while working as a dishwasher.
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--

Chris Ward
 
http://eatsleepcookschool.wordpress.com - The true story of the year I spent learning how to be a professional cook at catering school in Avignon, Provence, while working as a dishwasher.
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post #37 of 57
Thread Starter 
Plongeur, I appreciate your suggestion but I've quit the veal hunt. Honestly, I've found wives with less effort than I put into that search.

Any suggestions on developing a decent brown stock with what is available to the average retail shopper in middle America would be a great service to many!
just an old guy learning to live off his own cooking
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just an old guy learning to live off his own cooking
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post #38 of 57
It might be cost prohibitive due to shipping, but Venison America gets 50lb boxes of veal bones from New Zealand where they're raised without antibiotics and that kind of stuff. They ship anywhere. They deliver to the Twin Cities on a regular basis, so I've made my veal stock from that lately.

www.venisonamerica.com

However, before going strictly with veal stock, I used to use Beef neck bones for beef stock. The combination of meat and bone gave a pretty good tasting stock. As Wayne Gisslen points out in his Professional Cooking, stocks used to be always made with meat and bones, but because of the higher cost of meat these days, many are using only the bones.

I was wary of that, but have found that I get a great stock (veal anyways) without using any veal meat (I used to make a beef stock from beef neck bones side by side on the cooktop with a veal stock from veal neck bones, but the source for veal neck bones dried up and I got nervous about mad cow and beef neck bones. The Beef Council informed me that young cows can't catch mad cow, so, assuming they're telling me the truth I feel safer with the veal only).

Anyway, my first attempts at Espagnole sauce made from these combined beef and veal stocks and then turning that into Demi-glace, I've decided that my demi-glace made strictly from the veal bones is much more delicate and haute cuisine. :)

doc
post #39 of 57
After all the discussion dust settles, Do yourself a favor and create a stock that fits your needs/budget. Recipes are nothing but someone elses guidelines. Enjoy what YOU want to cook and the **** with the rest. You will be a better cook for it. Although most will have a difficult time digesting this view, Just remember that they are most likely stuck in a rut/the past etc... Live today and create the food you want to enjoy and share the results with others. More good will come out of the mistakes that you make than anyones opinion of what THEY think. After all you are unique as what hits the plate. :chef:
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'We're ALL amateurs; It's just that some of us are more professional about it than others'. - George Carlin
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http://www.frappr.com/chefsunited
One time a guy pulled a knife on me. I could tell it wasn't a professional job; it had butter on it.- Rodney Dangerfield -


'We're ALL amateurs; It's just that some of us are more professional about it than others'. - George Carlin
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post #40 of 57
SO, with that said, back to the easy to make middle america stock. Try Joy of Cooking, they have two brown stock recipes. One from bones, and one from browned meat. Pretty simple and it's where I started out learning to make stock.

doc
post #41 of 57
Let the light of new shine bright upon your decisions.:chef:
http://www.frappr.com/chefsunited
One time a guy pulled a knife on me. I could tell it wasn't a professional job; it had butter on it.- Rodney Dangerfield -


'We're ALL amateurs; It's just that some of us are more professional about it than others'. - George Carlin
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http://www.frappr.com/chefsunited
One time a guy pulled a knife on me. I could tell it wasn't a professional job; it had butter on it.- Rodney Dangerfield -


'We're ALL amateurs; It's just that some of us are more professional about it than others'. - George Carlin
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post #42 of 57
Thread Starter 
MAAAaaaAAA! If you tell them I don't give a **** what they think, they won't tell their secrets!
just an old guy learning to live off his own cooking
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just an old guy learning to live off his own cooking
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post #43 of 57
Doc,

Doc did you look at the demi - glace recipe i posted in cooking basic? if you carefully study it, the ingredietns i listed are actually your two recipes combined (with the exception of the Sherry), what we call a demi glace too. Except we dust the bones with flour and as there is fat from the bones, well that gives you a roux too, isnt it. (note the old traditional recipe, also lists clarified butter)

However the pocedure you mentioned with out binding with starch and say it is a demi glace, is for us a roasting jus. When we roast tender meats, we add a matignon 15 - 20 minutes before the meat is roasted, remove the meat and form there we roast the vegetables until brown, deglace with wine, add brown veal stock and reduce to desired consistency, strain, flavor, season to taste and at times monte with butter and serve.

regards
post #44 of 57
Chef Kaiser,
You asked me for the source of my recipes of Escoffier.

I provided you the recipes from the Escoffier cookbook. He called it what he called it, not me. I just repeated what I read. I take no credit for any of it.

doc
post #45 of 57
hi doc,

thank, no misunderstanding, appreciated. In my 5th edition French copy (Escoffier), they dont add Sherry they add a young Madeira.

regards
post #46 of 57
Hi Chef Kaiser,
That (Sherry vs. Madeira) would be consistent with my first post where I mentioned different editions (Escoffier) mention different wines to finish off the demi-glace.

I should mention that I am not a chef, although i have been cooking for almost 50 years. I find that it is quite enjoyable to me to re-produce the classic traditional dishes as would have generally been found a century or so ago almost everywhere. It's kind of like in the movie "Crossroads" where the Juliard instructor says "The discipline of the classical is very exacting"....

Pretty much no one anywhere these days in a commercial sense does things in the traditional classical fashion, so for me to enjoy what haute cuisine must have been like in the days of the Titanic or Escoffier working in London, I resort to preparing the dishes myself for me and the spouse. Trouble is, I don't have access to many ingredients, and freshness is always a problem for some items. Lack of repetition in preparation of dishes on a daily basis assuredly makes my results less than perfect!~ :)

Time to go to my day job.

Regards,
doc
post #47 of 57
Dear Doc,

i dont know how old you are, i am 44 turning 45 this year, but i believe age does not matter, as i understand what you say, as facts of commerce are clear to my eyes and their food quality, but unfortunatly the average can not see that anymore.

Dear Doc, i will post a new thread called Easter Vacation. Thank you for beeing honnest.

regards

hans
post #48 of 57
Skilletlicker...any updates? What did you come up with?


What are the rules to shipping...say veal bones? anyone know?


thanks,
dan
post #49 of 57
Thread Starter 
Thanks for asking.

I roasted 2 beef shanks, about 7 lbs. total, in 1" slices. Added a few herb and spices and 2 onions, 2 carrots and 2 celery stalks; simmered without stirring for several hours in enough water to cover. I ended up with about 2 qt. of very thick stock. There was either very little fat or the fat didn't separate in the ice box like I'm used to.

I was pretty satisfied with the first attempt at beef stock, but I suspect that I should have gotten more volume from that amount of meat.

I've given up looking for veal bones or feet. Veal shanks can be ordered but for something like $20 a lb which is too rich for my blood. Beef knuckles and necks are also unavailable. It seems my best choice for beef stock is shanks or tails.
just an old guy learning to live off his own cooking
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just an old guy learning to live off his own cooking
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post #50 of 57
If you can get tails, go for it. Alot more meat (meat=flavour & body) in the tails as well as natural gelatin.

And now, a non-cooking but very important related issue. After straining the stock, freeze the bones in a garabge bag, wait unil the night before garbage pickup, an then toss the bones out.
Should you not follow this advice, the dogs, cats, and any other animals (racoons especially, I swear those guys have little blackberries telling them who has the most choice garbage...) will knock over your cans, make a mess, and won't even compliment you on your hard work!
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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post #51 of 57
uh!:eek: did you say raccoons? Yes...I've run into this problem (they actually have always loved my garbage...but I usually always cook with bone-in products. I'll definitely be keeping this piece of information handy :) Although I did buy one of those Tupperware half/sheds to keep the raccoons out. SO far this is the ONLY thing that's worked. But I'll keep your advice on throwing bones out stored away for another day...should I ever have the raccoons come back.

I suppose I should feel a bit lucky that the Polish deli by me has assorted veal bones (usually tails and shanks) for $0.99/pound. I suppose that's one of our gifts for not having fresh seafood ;)


take care all...and keep the raccoons away :)

dan
post #52 of 57
Thread Starter 
That is a great price. In my area the megamart that always has beef shanks and oxtails sells beef shank (bones only) for .99/lb.

Maybe I could use the beef bones as bait and make racoon stock.:D
just an old guy learning to live off his own cooking
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just an old guy learning to live off his own cooking
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post #53 of 57
See also the thread "stock question" (where my question didn't really get answered...) about pork stock.

I've made a perfectly nice stock with pork neck bones (plentiful, cheap, fresh) & chicken feet. Though after simmering for 8 hours those chicken feet really truly look like something out of a horror movie. Little baby-***** hands....
The genesis of all the world's great cuisines can be summed up in a four word English phrase: Don't throw that away.
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The genesis of all the world's great cuisines can be summed up in a four word English phrase: Don't throw that away.
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post #54 of 57
Granny (Clampett) would only approve of road-kill racoon for any cooking purposes. It's been "aged"!

doc
post #55 of 57
Thread Starter 
I might have missed them, but don't recall chicken feet in the market. Out of idle curiosity; how much a pound? I don't recall seeing pork neck bones either.

Although it may not be stock I save the liquid left over from braised pork butt and use it like I might a pork stock. Also I like the drippings from baked ham in beans.

I want the Granny Clampett cookbook.

The offended gourmands have my apologies in advance!
just an old guy learning to live off his own cooking
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just an old guy learning to live off his own cooking
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post #56 of 57
The chicken feet were .99/lb; the pork neck bones were .69/lb. This was at a market (Jons) in Los Angeles that caters to... well, the folks in East Hollywood. Armenians, Russians, Thais, Mexicans, Salvadorans, and unemployed actors.
The genesis of all the world's great cuisines can be summed up in a four word English phrase: Don't throw that away.
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The genesis of all the world's great cuisines can be summed up in a four word English phrase: Don't throw that away.
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post #57 of 57
Yeah veal bones can be tough to find.Surprised you cant find beef bones that are dirt cheap.Last night I got about ten pounds of beef bones and package of neck meat.The bones where about eight bucks and the two pounds of necks where about two bucks and some change.Market basket tends to always have them if there is one in your area.
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