Terminologies of Cuts

Seems like kind of a generalization there Chef. Perhaps it has to do with the people you work with. If you have a kitchen full of "un-schooled" cooks, then perhaps descriptive words as opposed to correct terminology gets the point across better. If you know what a brunoise is, and the person you are trying to tell to make it knows what it is, then bang...no problems. But by the same token I am quite sure you can find an equal number of Europeans that will use big dice, small dice etc. in a professional setting. It would be nice if we all spoke the same language, but it likely won't happen. When I ran my kitchens and I wanted a Batonette or a lardon, etc. I said so. If the person I was telling didn't know then I would teach them. But to make a generalization that is wrong.

In all my training, some of it under french chefs, I was taught that a brunoise was 1/8 x 1/8 x 1/8 of an inch, which translates into approx. 3mm x 3 mm x 3 mm, not 1 x 1 x 1. While I agree that terms like large dice, medium dice, etc. can be vague, I don't know that we need to rely and the french for all of our terminology, all of the time. Sure brunoise, julienne, etc. are great terms, that I use often, but so is 1/4 inch dice, 1/2 inch dice.

Sadly it seems brunoise is the only cut anyone knows these
days. Often I will ask for a julienne, baton, paysanne, macedoine,
or chiffonade, and, get a blank stare in return. I to agree that
knife skills have fallen by the wayside. I think you will find that
many young cooks today are also in the dark in regards to
many mainstream classic sauces. Call me conservative, but,
some things are the way they are for a reason. When I ask
for something I expect to get it. More often than not, its not
that I want what I think something should be, but, what some
thing has to be. The lack of discipline and definition in kitchens
really bothers me these days, but, thats why I speak with each
new employee and give them, in written form, the basics(cuts, mother
sauces, proper uniform, etiquette,etc). In the end I am the one
charged with the responsibility of educating the kitchen staff. It
takes a little time, but, in the end it saves nine. By the way,
I have really enjoyed the posts by Chef Kaiser. Truly well rounded
gracious, and non jugemental. A true professional, I think, a lifer
probably.

Stephen

44? cripes. I was thinking 67-68:D I'm going out on a limg and judging your professional education to equate like an upbringing in a Catholic enviornment.
This is just me now, having already been cooking when Chef Kaiser was born. I would take the word generalization (used by Chrose) and change it to
generational. Like golf, a caddie now a days would not know which club I was calling for if I were to ask for a mashie, nibbkick, etc.
This is before my eyes are open, so please, no one take offence. I cannot talk without my hands for the first few hours of the day.
Gosh, sorry, that did not make any sense.

No Chef,
very happy this morning. Absolutely not being negetive. I just think as we pass the baton to the younger generation of chefs, terminology changes. For instance, I was just offered a pretty good chunck of money to stand in for a friend and teach his laminating course for three weeks. I was pretty sure I knew what laminating refered to, but I responded in a 'no thanks' way for I was not 100% sure. I have never used this label coming up. Chef, my post was with respect for you, nothing else. Our family is proud to be Catholic. I'm refering to the old way of education. My 15 yr old is attending a Cistercian Preparatory school which some would consider a little old fashioned. I regard it as pretty modern, when compared to the Catholic high school I attended.
Make any sense yet? sorry
pan

Well,
I have done it again. Not rereading my reply before posting.
Chef Kaiser, I have nothing but respect for you. That last post sounded like a slam, but it was not intended to be read like that. My crack about the age was in reference to how much knowledge and experience you have at a young age. The Catholic remark was refering to the older more classical ways of a catholic education. It's kinda like a classical education in food.
I appologise if that post sounded offensive. It was typed by an idiot who is not recovered from a busy day yesterday. I could not string two thoughts together this morning. I have no business posting. I'm gonna take a break and head out to Church. I'll pop on later this afternoon to assess the damage I've done.
pan

After some thought,
It has come to the point where I'm not enjoying participating any more. I'm going to take a break. It seems all I do is appologise for my thoughts.

I got to tell ya. Statements like this scare me a little, truly

Mister Kaiser,
I am thirty nine myself. Do not have the vast backround of
knowledge you have, but, seem to have a natural talent and
a strong sense of what my customer base wants. Good temperment
and Bilingual. I went to school(J&W) and came up with Swiss, French,
and German chefs. I to am at a resort and have multi outlets to
deal with. I agree with most all you say and very much enjoy
your posts. I see myself as a tradesman. Not quite the european
upbringing in so far as my culinary trade, but, enough time with now
chefs in thier 70's and 80's to have respect and be humble. Thank
you again for your posts, have been looking for someone like you to
get advice from for quite a while. Take it easy.

Stephen

Truly a shame this thread has taken this path. Chef Kaiser, I'm pretty sure you were being paid a compliment when Panini expressed suprise at your age. I was suprised too. your knowledge and devotion to tradition suggest someone older, and here in cyberspace all we have to go by is your posts, which I have enjoyed. I am a relative newcomer to this site but Panini has always struck me as a positive guy. Perhaps, reread this thread in a different frame of mind.
Regards,

Tony

Okay I'm jumping back in this. I reread all the posts. I want to say also that I am not trying to be nasty or discourteous, but I am not going to pull any punchs here either. This board is about openess, honesty and courtesy, and I will do my best to uphold this, but some things need to be said, in my own humble opinion mind you. When Panini made the comment about Chef Kaiser being only 44 I understood exactly what he meant. The Chef comes across as a much older person by his tone and language. I made my comment about generalizations because in many of the posts the Chef comes across as somewhat elitest and of the opinion that he is here to teach us because we need to be taught.

The cooks and Chefs that went to school likely all know about Careme and Escoffier and others because in order to bring your profession forward you must learn from the past. However Careme and Escoffier et al were the forbearers and masters of the craft, however they are not gods, and they are not the end all and be all of cooking. There are many among us that are truly phenomenal cooks and chefs, that are not professionally trained and because of that it is unlikely that they know the history of the european chefs. That does not make them any less able than any others. Because Europe is so much older than the US, it is natural that classical cooking evolved from there. The professional kitchen thereofore has always had a European presence in it. Many older Chefs including myself worked and trained with Chefs that were trained under the old European apprentice method and brought the hard *** kitchen mentality with them. There have been countless threads on this board on just that subject. We have worked very hard to learn from the masters that went before us but have also worked very hard to fly on our own wings and use their shoulders to reach heights they had never known were even possible. But there has always been a very pervasive European elitest mentality in the kitchens, and I'm afraid that the good chef at the tender age of only 44 is whether it's intended or not seems to be foisting that agenda on the members of the board.

It's apparent that there is tremendous knowledge and respect for for the profession, and a desire to try and continue the heralded traditions of the professional kitchen and I applaud that. But this is the year 2006 and we are in a new millenium and a new attitude and if we do not adhere to the "old ways" to the letter that doesn't make us any less than you.

The comment about the Catholic environment was made to illustrate that it appears that you went through the apprentice system which was from what I understand as arduous and demeaning and therefore you speak with an air of that upbringing.

My whole point here is that we are a diverse group and we all bring unique talents, abilities and personalities to the board, and in order to get along we need to respect those differences and abilities. We all welcome the opportunity to learn from each other because there is something we can learn from everyone. So lets not get off on the wrong foot by seemingly arrogant posts and comments and let's respect that we can all get along in the kitchen regardless of our training or lack thereof.
I'm going to bed now.:beer:

Chrose and Chef Kaiser,

I am extremely delighted with this particular post. It is the
most straight forward yet. I agree with everyone to an extent.
I think point Mr. Kaiser is trying to relay goes something like this.
Being a great Chef is a culmination of many things. Family backround,
exposure to many cultures, formal training(only for the base), strong
relationships with mentors, natural talent,years of repetition, working knowledge of
relative administrative duties, the learned and natural ability to multi
task on a massive scale, self control, discipline(very important), the
ability to mold yourself into many different kitchen environments, having
a strong family behind you(lest you lose focus on one of lifes most
important things), the willingness to keep your mind open and to
continue to learn, create, and innovate. Older chefs sometimes say
to me, "I already forget more than you ever gonna learn". I am not
put off by it, because it is more time than not, true. It is rude to try
and compare chefs of today with chefs of an older more disciplined
era(many in thier late 30's and 40's). It is impossible to compare an
executive chef with many outlets to support and many limitations, to,
a chef in the catering business, school, or freestanding medium sized
restaurant. I am not fanning the fire, but, anyone who can run things
on a grand scale successfully, is elite. I am faced with some problems
that Chef Kaiser has already conquered and will probably be asking for
help. Panini, Chrose. I have much respect for the posts you have participated in and enjoy them equally. You know the most important job there is? The job each one of us do. Heres in hopes I don't sound one
sided or jaded.

Humbly yours,

Stephen

Hey, back to the ve3gtables. I'm confused. The chef is talking like someone voted the french to take charge of termanologies. In the old country, wit all do respect, we are not speaking brunoise and all the other french terms. If I want eggplant diced up, I get it.
I ben reading a while here. There a lot a guys who give some prety good advice. and when someone has a question, they usually get a pretty good answer. but you can see the difference between chefs. Some just answer the questions because they been there and done that and, some, no dicriminination meant, some sound like there reading from a book. Anyway, mabe the cooking schools teach you the french terms, but from what I can see, it's my job to teach my cavones what I want, and that terminology does not seem to be an exact science. corse you would probably classify me as one of THOSE, you know, the ones who didnt go to the fancy classicall joints. Just been kicken around for 48 yrs chefin.
ciao
tomi

this has got to be a joke. no?
FYI I don't know anyone who measures with cups and spoons. Lets get the facts straight. So we again are going to generalize and say the american can't be as good as swiss because of the way we measure. And that is based upon a home economics book? Let's get real here. This is the mentality the US chefs had to put up with all through the last couple of decades. You're not anti american? lease go back and reread all your posts. Which by the way have offered absolutly no practical knowlege except regurgitating out of books. Sorry to be so nasty but to tell me the US has not developed in the Culinary Arts is the hugest insult of all the ones you have thrown out there. I would never say that european are stuck in a rut. Some of the older ones are still living in the dark ages. PLEASE stop trying to make Europe, especially Swiss, to be some sort of elite culinary race. There is just as much negetives in your enviornment as the US. Try talking to the US pions in the eyes and not looking down at us. You are not a very good example of the Swiss people.
I happen to know, ok! I lived in Lake Zurich abd left my home every morning to catch the lake ferry into town. So you should know where I was working, not to hard to figure out. I don't have go around and make like I'm better then someone else. I also met a few scleppers while working over there.
Au heck, your nothing like the wonderful people I met and stayed with over ther. Boy, I wish I could be as articulate as some here.
We never progressed in the culinary arts. Well at least we can be thankful that you feel for us.

Panini!

Thanks for putting in words what I've been too lazy(those fourteen hour shifts and all) to say myself.
Escoffier was great and is probably still relevant, but there's a place in the world for mozart and the beatles, frank zappa and schubart.
French and europeans didn't invent food or cooking. Not the food there isn't great at times.

If there's any problem with the cooking schools in the states is how much french centric they are. They teach french french french and then add one day on thai food.
I find myself with cooks telling me their teachers tell them what I do in the kitchen is wrong, my techniques are wrong. Well, my base is indian food and it's ingenious use of spices. I don't like pre browning meat for braising, or dicing the onion nicely. I just make an onion spice paste and cook the meat in that. Comes out amazing. "But chef, you're wrong"...


Sorry. I'm getting angry here. You're doing a great job panini, I'll stay quiet.

We mustn't forget why we participate in this forum. It is to
share ideas, learn, and take a little time out to enjoy others
points of view. I would caution some not to wear your hearts
on your sleaves. I don't think it is anyones intent to judge others.
Although I have enjoyed the flaring tempers, I must say a little
lighter mood is in order.

I must humbly agree with Chrose and Panini on this one. Chef Kaiser's posts, while well-meaning, come off as superior, elitist, pedantic and egotistic. I've been reading these threads and trying to keep my mouth (or fingers as the case may be) quiet. Sorry, I can't any longer.
It may very well be a case of English being a second or third language, but his consistency of style leads me to believe otherwise.

To assert that chefs are the ones who nourish humanity is arrogant in the extreme-people have been cooking, eating and nourishing themselves for eons before the concept of a chef or restaurant came along. The people most truly accomplished chefs credit for their talent and passion is usually their Moms or Grandmothers. Just about everybody older than 35 learned basic cooking skills at the end of a woman's apron string. To credit the French chefs Careme and Escoffier as being the inventors of cuisine is additionally erroneous. They just happened to be some of the first professionals to document what they did, that's all.

There is a fascinating book of table traditions and culinary expertise written by a slave from Virginia in 1789 (I think that predates any of those french guys) that documents all the recipes, table settings, entertaining and service traditions used in the local plantations of his day. The writing style and cooking represented is truly elegant and reflective of the traditions and tastes of the time, just as Careme and Escoffier are. It also happens to be the first book ever published by an African American. But is it bettter than the French because it's older? No. Just as the French documentarians, it's only a historical glimpse into what was done there, at THAT time.

Criticizing American cuisine as being only fastfood and hamburgers is as ignorant and trite as saying "real men don't eat quiche." Get over it. There is truly brilliant cuisine happening here and there always has been-you just have to look for it. It gets my nose really out of joint when I read reports of American chefs going to Paris to introduce American haute cuisine. All of the chefs were originally from Europe, and they used ingredients like foie gras and truffles! What's American about that? It's just regurgitation of the same old world styles-not truly innovative. Nowhere on their menues were ingredients like chilies (in thier infinite variety), corn, sweet potatoes, tomatoes, peanuts, turkey, blue or dungeness crab, cranberries, blueberries or any of the other foods indigenous to the Americas. (OK, maybe they did use some tomatoes and chocolate.)

To assert that any of these items, or the method of common measurment in the states is inferior shows more about what the writer doesn't know than his expertise. BTW, the reason most cooks in the USA use volume measurments than weights comes from the transient nature of our history. Scales break and become innacurate as you move them around, but a cup and a teaspoon are always available and usually (but, not always) a reliable method of measuring. Cultural cooking methods can always be traced to the needs associated with the society in which they were established. Does it make one method superior to another? Of course not-it just depends on your needs at the time.

For Chef Kaiser to constantly bombard us all with endless lists of French culinary terminology and set lists of cooking methods says more to me about his insecurities and misplaced pride than genuine interest in the miriad wonderful ways that people all over the world have fed themselves over the course of time.

I too have put off posting here. Obviously I have great respect for chef K as well as Pan, pete, etc. and passion can be hard to articulate into this fourm (therefour it can come off sounding a bit mean), however, lets relak a second and realise the people are different and they indeed cook different.

I never thought you had to be Italian to cook Italian food or Swiss to make good chocolate.

I feel as passionate about the basics as the make translating to your employees what you want of them and how you want it made. That being said some people do not have that knowlege and the process of teaching them might be a bit to ardijous (for the short term). Furthermore, the book don't make the cook any more than the jacket makes the chef.

How about a little love and respect here and agree to differ.

Ummm, getting back to vegetable cutting styles.....

An onion is an onion is an onion, but how do want the onion cut? Do you want it cut across the rings, for Fr. Onion soup, do you wnat it in large dice? How large, in 1/4's ? 3/4 inch dice?

I really don't give a rodent's posterior as to how many sides a turned potato has or if brunoise garnish for a consomme is 1 mm or 3 mm across. What I want is consistancy within the respective sizes and a "code word" for that particular cut; so with one word, I can tell any cook I want, the size of vegtable I want cut. And this is, if I reason correctly, what Escoffier had in mind when he coined the terms for the various cuts. Yeah, that guy, why does it always go back to that guy? The only reason why it goes back to that guy is because he was the only one who could get some kind of cohesive kitchen organization, be it sauces or vegetable sizes. All things change, and Escoffier is oudated, but if we could get a unanimous decision that the whole world of cooks would respect and follow, in regards to things like sauces and vegeble sizes, we would all be alot better off.

****, call a 1/2" dice "Grundig" for all I care, just make sure everyone calls it that and that everyone has the same size.....

i'm new to this forum, and relatively new to the culinary proffession. i myself am only 19, but have already had a world of experiences, some good, some bad. the chef i work for right now (and i whole heartedly agree with him) says that we, as chefs ( i know, i'm only 19, not a true chef, but just hear me out), should respect all of our fellow chefs from around the world, no matter what their background. he's from italy, and naturally thinks that italian food is the best in the world, but he doesn't disregard all of the american chefs as 'incompetent' if you will. he loves to go out and get a good hamburger, and loves chicken fired steak, collard grrens, and black eyed peas.

i guess what i'm really trying to say is this: as chefs, we must not look down on any cuisine from around the world. granted, french and italian and german and all the european and asian cuisines have been around for centuries, there are food in the united states that do not exist anywhere else. we fuse the different cultures together to make a completely different dish. the french and italians and germans, etc., etc., etc., think that their food is best, and they don't need to fuse it. hence the reason that all the culinary schools use french terms and methods of cooking, because they saw no reason to change, because they were 'the best'. but what we all must realize, is that the world is changing, palates are changing, so we too, must change. we're here to make the customers happy, and in america, we have to cater to many different kinds of people, with many different culinary backgrounds. i'm not saying that french food and italian and.......... isn't great, but why can't we change it to suit our needs?

i have the utmost respect for everybody in this forum who shows respect for everybody else. there is no reason that we should get upset and disrespect each other. thats not what being a chef is all about, at least not to me. i have been through many things in my short life thus far that have humbled far beyond anything that i can imagine. i have had to go through 2 divorces, the suicide of my mother, and most recently, i am starting to recover from cancer. this should have all made me a very bitter person, but it's only made me want to enjoy my life that much more.

we live in a world today that doesnt have room for egos, or prejudice, or disrepect. i chose this to be my profession, and i don't want to be discriminated against and looked down upon because i didn't go to johnson and wales, or le cordon bleu. i'm going to culinary school at a tech college in atlanta because i can't affordto go to a 'prestigious' culinary arts college, so does that mean that my passion for making great food, and my abilities, and my skills aren't as good? because if it does, then i don't want to be in this profession, i guess you could say, that i wouldn't deserve it, becasue i didn't get the best education. if you think that it's all about where you learned, and not about what you learned and how much you love to do it, then you don't deserve to call yourself a chef.

all i ask is that you don't disregard what i say because of my age or because i'm 'only' going to a technical college for my formal culinary education,

thank you,

dustin

life's too short to eat bad food and drink bad wine