An Inconvenient Truth About Food - Page 2  

Well sorry...Algore and his army of godless left wing tree hugging morons just gets me riled up sometimes. I had much rather discuss more pleasant things myself.

bigwheel

It seems to me that most people who wholeheartedly buy into what the Al Gores of the world are selling, have never done any research into the other side of the argument. If someone presents evidence that refutes the doomsayers of the world, they are instantly branded as being a mouth piece for the corporations and oil companies of the world, and their opinions and research are dismissed out of hand. When in fact the doomsayers themselves also have agendas and careers that are so locked onto the idea that humanity is destroying the planet at a fantastic rate that they can allow nothing to change their minds. They are as biased in their own way as those they ridicule. That is the way of academia.

The truth no doubt lies somewhere in the middle, but the average Joe is not allowed to come to that conclusion because he is hammered from all angles with the idea that humanity sucks and the world is going to end if we don't all start riding bikes. Don't get me wrong, many of the things that some of you are attempting can make a difference, but the world is not coming to an end. I suggest that all of you that believe Al Gore knows all, please try reading some other books. "The Skeptical Environmentalist", "Meltdown, The Predictable Distortion of Global Warming by Scientists, Politicians, and the Media", "A Poverty of Reason: Sustainable Development and Economic Growth", "Global Warming in a Politically Correct Climate: How Truth Became Controversial".

Give a couple of those a try, you might be surprised that there are two sides to every story.

Kevin

I like Muskies.

MuskyHopeful, I don't think I have much chance of convincing you that there is evidence of a potentially catastrophic environmental event, not something that happens with a few days, but something that occurs over decades or even centuries.

The thing that strikes me, however, is the fact that you apparently think that people who do not believe those things that you believe treat Al Gore as a God. A Messiah. A Christ.

I don't think you have ever spoken to someone who does not share your opinion. People who believe that Al Gore may be correct concerning the environment do not necessarily treat him as some golden god who can do no wrong and speak no falsehood. But, as someone with influence who attempts to get the message out that we must treat this earth with more respect. The Earth may not be dying, but it is being affected by the actions of people. We must take care of this planet in much the same way a homeowner would have his home inspected for termites or mold. It is easier to treat a problem in its youth.

I don't see how anyone can ignore the evidence. All you have to do is to compare the rate of change in the past few years to the rate of change throughout history. It's significant, not just in some nerdy statistical kind of way but in an obvious way that most of us can understand. It's the rapid rate of change, not the mere fact that temps are changing.

Suppose for the past 20 years it took you 15 minutes to cook hard boiled eggs. Lately you've noticed that it's been taking you longer and longer. Wouldn't you suspect something's going wrong?

I like this site. Straightforward and easy to read:

http://globalchange.gov/

devotay,
i have a harmon (www.harmonstoves.com) low emissions, 1 ton of pellets burns down to about 2 cubic feet of ash that can be tilled into the garden. some areas of the country have pellets made from hardwood, some from corn. when i used oil to heat my home 6 yrs ago it was about $2500+ i now pay $280 a ton for pellets, using 3-5 tons per year and maybe 3 tanks of oil/yr. to heat my hot water. the stove goes on in october and stays on until may. pellets are pretty widely available, i get mine delivered all at once. you want to get the better grade as they burn better, more heat output and less waste.
also check www.pelletheat.org
kathee

Musky if you don't mind I am going to quote you and then paraphrase you to make my point.

I would paraphrase that to say "If someone presents evidence that refutes the other side, they are instantly branded as being a mouth piece for the other side, and their opinions and research are dismissed out of hand.

I would paraphrase to say "The truth no doubt lies somewhere in the middle, but the average Joe is not allowed to come to that conclusion because he is hammered from all angles with the idea that humanity sucks and the world is going to end if we don't all start riding bikes or from the other side that the "tree huggers" are all alarmists and only want for us all to hug and get along while the world goes to ****.


I am not trying to put words into your mouth but you hit upon a couple of items that you are really right about. That is that there are indeed 2 sides to every story, and both sides have valid points and both sides have their own particular alarmist views. Unfortunately both sides get so tied up in rhetoric and the "party line" that they will almost never work together.

It really comes down to a simple statement (imho) that Stavrogin put out there, and that is A lot of things happen in slow motion and take a lot of time. So much in fact that the change is almost imperceptible until wham it hits you in the face! This is what we face over the course of time. Think about this; have you ever seen rabbits, rats, and or cockroaches multiply? 2 become 4, 4 become 8, etc. they grow exponentially. That's happening to our population. If we continue to grow as a species in 100 years how many people will there be? How many people can the earth really hold and support?
To use a kitchen analogy if we only order for the weekend and cannot get anything else until Tuesday what happens if we get hit unexpectedly on Monday? Simple, we're all out and all we can serve is salad and coffee. People go away hungry and don't come back.
Both sides just need to toss the rhetoric and name calling and work together to come up with a solution. There are many on both sides that do now, but of course the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Alright I'll shut up already and step off the soapbox. Next........:smiles:

By the way Kevin, I understand you like Muskies! But what I really want to know is how your wife feels about mushrooms? :)

honest restaurants.....there are dishonest restaurants?

This thread is bizarre.....why would you not do your part in conserving resources? As in any commercial kitchen, if it's a mess come up with a better operating procedure to maintain cleanliness....

The University I'm consulting with has a sustainable local foods cafeteria that uses non-wood smallwares, plates, cups, napkins....sugar cane, shale, bamboo..bags that breakdown within 4 weeks....they are just planted in the garden....YEP a garden using companion planting, beneficial bugs, etc....used by the cafeteria. They source from a mydrid of local farmers and ranchers. During the season at least 90% of their product is local....meats, cheese, veg, fruit... no frying....organic fruit, nuts, grains go into the baked goods....breads are made with levan....AND the kicker is the pricing is set for students....5 for $5, you can get 5 vegetables for lunch. Or meat and 3 for $6, we're talking local lamb, chicken, beef, trout.....Greek Salad for $4 with local artisinal farmstead feta....this whole project in the first in the nation to be run by a Nutrition & Dietitics Dept. not a dorm food service. The man running it was a buddy that helped form Clayton Farmer's Market with me and breaks down and uses whole critters (he's a Frenchman at heart).

Today I'm overseeing grad students getting their RD's and CC at the same time (registered Dietitians and Certified Chef)....meeting with an alderwoman about the elementary school garden market....collaborating with the community will be key to it's success. This group has also been involved with the market for years making farm omelets for the past 3 years, using products from the market. Sometimes I feel like I'm herding turtles but in the long run it's educating the next generation of educators.

Can you fathum having RD CC in our school lunch programs or hospitals that have been working with a sustainable agriculture thread?

STL, Mo....cutting edge baby!!!

Oh yeah the first farmer-chef cooking class went very well, connecting rural and urban, having guest chefs demonstrate recipes using local products, bringing in local winery to pour, inviting media to hear the farm stories.....good food, good stories, good times. 5 more to go.

Ahhh a rational voice crying in the wilderness. Thanks for your input. Hope you catch that Musky or turn into a Musky or whutever:)

bigwheel

Carl Sagan once wrote that we are in no danger of destroying the world, or life on this planet. We are only in danger of destroying ourselves. He's right. Once life has taken a hold it is very, very difficult to get rid of. Just look at the history of the earth. Mother Nature and the Universe have created catacylsmic events that we can't hope to come close to (barring nuclear annihilation) and yet life has continued. More than once, in the earth's history, have there been events that have wiped out the vast majority of living creatures, and yet life still goes on. No, we won't destroy "Mother Earth" or even damage her significantly. We will only succeed in destroying ourselves. No matter what we do she, and life will continue.

Now don't get me wrong, I would like the human race to survive. I think that a lot of what people are suggesting are great ideas, but I think they only really scratch the surface, and while making some differences, only prolong the inveitable. People love to talk about driving "hybrid" cars. Great, yes it saves on oil, but it also takes a considerable amount of petroleum to produce all the plastic that helps make those cars lighter so they get better gas mileage. People want to tout their opinions here on Chef Talk, but your computer is loaded with plastic, a petroleum product, and is powered by electricity, which is probably produced by coal powered plants. We stretch our natural resources to the limit yet we continue to find ways to prolong life, fight diseases, and find ways to "cheat" death, allowing more and more people to procreate and live longer, healthier lives thus using more and more of our resources. The solutions I have seen here are not really solutions, as I see it, but merely a way to prolong the inveitable outcome. It buys us some time, a generation or 2, maybe 3 or 4 at the most. If you really want to "save the planet" then you really need to be willing to make more changes than you have proposed here. Sustainable agriculture is part of that and so is the conservation of our limited natural resources, but it also includes demanding that corporations start seriously researching alternative fuels, the willingness to pay higher prices as new technologies are discovered and refined. It also includes really stepping up our space exploration program to help us discover ways to exploit the resources of other planets. The other option (one that really is not an option, in my opinion) is population control. Controling birthrates, encouraging euthanasia and the end to attempting to eradicate disease and starvation. Someone earlier used the rabbit analogy, and it goes for humans too, just over a longer period. The more people we allow to live, the more people there will be to reproduce and our population will continue to increase. All other animal populations have always been kept in check by Mother Nature, but we no longer have those checks and balances. Given that, our population will continue to grow and grow. Someday, dispite all such attempts we will outgrow our natural resources and ability to produce enough food

This is the middle ground between the 2 extreme views. Those on the side that view this as issue as a bunch of lies started by the "tree-hugging hippies" have their heads in the sand. Those that promote conservation and sustainable agriculture are fooling themselves if they really think it will make a difference in the long run. The reality is, if you want to save us from ourselves then some very drastic measures must be taken, anything else just slows down the inveitable.

Yep, dishonest ones.. the ones which slice off a piece of tuna, put some wasabi in the mayo and charge you $11?

Yakety-yakety-yak yak yak. Like Aesop's fable of belling the cat, who's gonna take the plunge? Shroomgirl's description of her campus sounds great, I'd like to be a part of that, but it is in it's own little world. Don't get me wrong--I applaud and agree with their policies, but it's kinda like the monks of old, building a walled monasatary and living completly self-sustaining, albeit shut off from everyone else.

At 42 yrs of age and with the stresses of running my own biz, I come to a total paridigm shift a long time ago:

Reality sucks.

And the reality of the above discussed situation is, we can only save our world as we know it if there's a profit margin. Nothing wrong with that, sound ecology and saving money go hand in hand.

But who's gonna bell the cat? Who will take the initiative?

Who has the clout to take the initiative?

Who has the will to take the initiative? Certainly not the N. American countries. Remember back in the '70's how much effort it took to convince the "big 3" auto makers to re-design engines to burn unleaded gas? The 3 made a calcualtion and figured it was cheaper to fight in court than it was to re-tool. Ozone layer? What ozone layer, use stick deodarant for gawd's sake and shut up. Even after loosing the 3 continued to build shoddy un-efficient cars until the competition (Japanese and Europeans) ate their lunch with better designed, safer, and more fuel effecient cars. (As a note, the 3 pulled the same crap when it came to seatbelts too...) Thus, it became profitable, or rather a matter of survival, for the 3 to build better cars.

The countries that matter the most won't acknowldge Kyoto simply because it interferes with big business, and big business drives the economy and the wealth of these countries. Things will have to get alot worse for big businesses to change their way of doing things before anything will get better.

Great expose on the true goals and dogmas of the faith based religion of liberalism. Euthanasia is our pal. Kill the babies and save the whales. Pastor Algore be mighty proud of your faithfulness and insight no doubt. Hopefully Saint Carl is watching the action from his vantage point in the bowels of Mother Earth.

bigwheel

Seriously Bigwheel you sound like an *** now. Can you provide an intelligent post to this discussion or are you going to continue posting stupid comments and sound like an idiot?
I'm not going to put you on my ignore list (nobody on there in fact) but I'm starting to understand why Devotay did.

You are talking about the special setup one can create for aquarium algae and the process of combustion.

As an economist, I entirely agree that it comes down to economics at the end of the day. Part of the problem is that business, especially large factories and the like, are given incentives to pollute. They can buy cheap pollution credits from the US govt and save tons by allowing the pollution instead. Make polluting more expensive than than not polluting and you'll see some change.

Seriously doubt there be anything I could say which would sound intelligent to you and your pal. This is because the religion of liberalism operates on emotion..not logic. The typical adherent of liberalsim "feels" guilty about various things...mankind's abuse of Mother Earth for example. When evidence to the contrary arises it is dismissed out of hand because it does not agree with how the practitioner feels about the topic. Does not line up with their emotions in other words. Having no logical basis for their guilt and fear they quickly exhaust the meager store of hokey science supplied by other guilt ridden liberals such as Algore...which supposedly undergirds how they feel about the matter. This results in information to the contrary being rejected quickly followed by an attack on the messenger which is inevitably accompanied by name calling. Its also called a liberal emotional puke sessioin. Your post is a classic example of the genre. Thanks for the demonstration.

bigwheel

Bigwheel, I agree with just about everyone else here on this board. You are an *** and bring no real insight into most of the discussions you have involved yourself in. It takes no real talent to take opposing views and spout a bunch of crap just for the sake of upsetting people. And come on, this persona you are playing is starting to get really annoying. Fine, if you want everyone to think you talk and act like a backwards hick from BFE Texas, then fine, but don't try and involve yourself in issues that are obviously above the head of someone who can't even spell "what", "computer" or any of the other words you can't seem to spell. Next time, think before you write, and if you can't come up with anything that furthers the conversation, then STOP typing.

Totally agreed, Pete. Not only that, Bigwheel, but you are the only one getting emotional over this. While other posters have addressed the issues, all you have done is rant. That is clearly an emotional response. You augment your anger by shouting "liberal, liberal, liberal" because, it seems, it pushes your emotional buttons to hear the word.

BW, it's a shame you have no idea do you. All my post prior to the last one to you have essentially been begging you to say something intelligent, but you refuse to. You fall back on the regurgitation of what you have been told by the peers you choose to believe with no apparent (so far anyway) thought process of your own.
Unless you add some emotion to the logic you become a mindless droid that speaks by rote. Sound familiar.
You sir are no messenger. My only "attack" was to call you an *** and point out that you're acting like an idiot. That's not an attack, that's a statement of fact brought out by the sheer frustration of my inability to cajole you into making an intelligent, lucid post. Not to mention the fact that honestly you have been the only one on the attack.
Likewise I am quite sure.

You may find this very difficult to believe, but I have no doubt we could sit down over a nice bbq'd pig, down a couple of beers and have an intelligent conversation. I don't disagree on everythjing you say, but try and take 2 words out of your posts and we can talk better. Al Gore and Liberal (s) (ism) etc.

Gotta go, my basement is flooding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Told ya BW you should have backed outta this a long time ago now you have went and stuck your foot in your mouth, sorry I can't help you man, the others are right. THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE. STAY ON TOPIC. Thats all anyone is asking of you. Ch is right, I read several of his post and he was dropping you hints all the way.

Rgds Rook

Ok..let us start over from square one. If the commie pinko left wing nature worshiping socialists will shut the **** up over the Henny Penny Sky is Falling marlarky and stifle the mention of their super hero..the inventer of the internet and hanging chads..so will I. I will also promise to refer to them as "progressives" or something similar like that. By the same token they welcome to call me a evil old gun toting right wing Bible Believing Christian. If the truth be knownst I can tolerate them a lot mo betta than they can tolerate me. Actually progressives is only tolerant to other progressives as this thread proves. I dont know how they can walk around claiming to be tolerant. Whuts up with that? Hope that basement dont get too deep. I'm praying for ya.

bigwheel

I give up.

Rgds Rook

Yakety-yakety-yak yak yak. Like Aesop's fable of belling the cat, who's gonna take the plunge? Shroomgirl's description of her campus sounds great, I'd like to be a part of that, but it is in it's own little world. Don't get me wrong--I applaud and agree with their policies, but it's kinda like the monks of old, building a walled monasatary and living completly self-sustaining, albeit shut off from everyone else.


own little world huh.....about 6 years ago next month I started a growers market in STL. first of it's kind. Growers selling what they raise. Today the market is going strong, there are now 5 additional markets in the area that are also grower only and they are thriving. Darlin' if you roll up your sleeves, have a vision and work the mission statement you'll succeed. oh yeah and from that cute little market several events that promote chefs using local products have started an even greater demand of wholesaling to restaurants.

As to teaching the young and promoting eating fresh fruits and vegetables.....I see changes through the kids I've taught culinary camp coming through the market to select things to make.

within the past ten years farmers markets have increased from 350 to over 3000 last count in the USA.....not my little world but the world we live in.

If you get time go back.....way back through the archives and see what changes have happened. Oh, and I talk at national conventions.....several communities have opted to make changes.....

Keep the faith.

This community is proud that we are tolerant- but not of bullies, bigwheel.

Oh Rook,:mad: :mad: :mad: I swear to you this is the exact post I was going to make and you beat me to it.

BW, I give up trying to make peace and talk sensibly with you. No insults, no arguments, just I'm done with you.

Ok try not to let the door hit you in the booty on the way out. As I said earlier..I do not make friends easy. They use to write that on my repoat cards from grade school ya know? I always wanted to play jump rope with the girls and stuff like that.

bigwheel

Well ducking out here for a miniute from the flaming barbs of naggin intolerant moderates to say...Well dang that sounds like a heckuva operation on the Farmers Mkt. deal. Congrats on the success of getting it going. Now is you Shroomgirl or is you aint? Seems like you/she is posting and also getting talked about in the thread. Whut is up with that? You trying to get us seasoned citizens cornfused here perhaps?

bigwheel

I guess I'll dive back into this mess again. There were a couple posts that seemed to directly address my comments. I did notice that nobody stepped up and said, "hey, you know what, maybe I should do a little research into the other side of things," but that's to be expected.

Stavrogin:

Please notice that I first said the Al Gore(s) of this world. He is just a prominent figure in the push for panic. He fits in with the "majority" of scientists. If enough scientists on the politically correct side pound the table, they must be right. Who cares if there's also scientists that say things aren't that bad? I did not mean to imply that people had deified him in any way.

You also help to make my point by assuming that I haven't spoken to someone that believes differently than I do. Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I don't examine boths sides of an issue before I make decisions or voice an opinion. That's called thinking. As matter of fact, one of my best friends is a very active member of the WI Greens. He ran for governor of the state in the last election, and was mainly responsible for getting the Green Party and Libertarians equal time in the last televised debates. You think he and I have not had some interesting conversations? I've sampled his side of the rhetoric. Unfortunately he has not sampled mine, because he's sure he's right.

Kuan:

I have to ask you if you read the paragraphs on the first page of the link you supplied? You want to believe that conditions of the world are changing rapidly from what you've noted in your own experience? Has it been warmer, snowier, more hurricanes? Unfortunately you will need the nerdy statistics to quantify the changes I believe your speaking of, and there are statistics for both sides of the argument. Please look at the "The Skeptical Environmentalist". It's written by a statistician.

The rate of change CAN be compared to the rate of change in the past. This is from your link.

"global change news
Abrupt Climate Change: New Research Supports Hypothesis that Ocean Currents Redistributed Heat During Rapid Warming and Cooling

A paper published this week in the journal Science supports the hypothesis that heat transfer by ocean currents--rather than global heating or cooling--may have been responsible for the global temperature patterns associated with the abrupt climate changes seen in the North Atlantic during the past 80,000 years. Authored by the University of Bremen's Frank Lamy and colleagues, the paper provides new evidence that Southern Hemisphere climate may not have changed in step with Northern Hemisphere climate. Though these new measurements of ocean surface temperature off Chile are consistent with information from Antarctic ice core samples, they still contradict measurements made on land in the Southern Hemisphere--suggesting additional research will be needed to resolve the issue. Scientists have found evidence of rapid and dramatic climate change that took place in a matter of decades during cool periods of the last 80,000 years in the North Atlantic."

Chrose:

You're right. Both sides do the same thing. That's why I offered a post that offered some alternative information which no one here even acknowledged. I looked at both sides of the issue before I formed my opinions. I also praised those of you out there that are making an effort.

When you say our population is out of control, I hope you don't mean the U.S. population, as it is relatively stable. Population growth world wide is less an issue than it was 10-20 years ago, but it is still a concern.

Thanks for reminding me my wife doesn't like mushrooms. What the **** is up with that anyway? That's a whole other topic.

Pete:

Wow. You are all over the place on this my friend. You are dead on about space exploration. A concerted effort to get into space should be started yesterday. The shuttles have accomplished very little in 20+ years, and we could be sitting on Mars as I write this, figuring a way to wrangle one of those iron asteroids for mining.

Alternative fuels are right around the corner. Check out a book called "The Nanocosm". Long lasting solar panels and hydrogen fuel cells are going to be a reality within the next 25 years. That's why I don't ride a bike, and will keep driving my Bonneville. Unfortunately, that same nanotechnology will also be applied to medicine, thus making those long lives that seem to bother you so much even longer.

I have to tell you, your comments on euthanasia and ending the quest to eradicate disease as a way to control population are weird and unsettling. I'll leave it at that.

Foodpump:

You make some good points about Kyoto, though I can't tell where you stand on the issue by reading them. I think any technologically and industrialized advanced country that would risk its economic stability and consequently its way of life, on such a treaty, while the third world countries of the world would be allowed to pollute, should be considered suicidal and kept under observation.

The planet is not in the dire straights that many believe. Technological advances will make a difference. The youth of this country are also leaning toward the green side. I have nieces and nephews that are so highly educated it's practically unbelievable, and they all have a green tint to them. I trust they will make the changes that need to be made in this world, and they'll make them in a reasonable manner. There's plenty of time.

I never learn to keep it short. Sorry.

Kevin

I like Muskies. My wife doesn't like Mushrooms.

Yeppers thats whut I been trying to tell em. God is in charge of this mess. Let us relax..hang on to Him tight..and let Him sort it out. In the meantime we should sure be Good Stewards and Stewardises (flight attendants maybe?) of the glorious creation the Creator has graciously bestowed upon us. Let us Focus our bright lights onto the Creator. He can take care of His Creation. He can also snatch you out of the grave. Bhudda and the earth godess cant do kewlish stuff like that.

bigwheel

There are two sides to every issue.
I'm always excited to hear each side.
I do get turned off when I spend time listening to a regurgitated responce from the uninformed who are quick to side with the popular belief at the local gin mill.
I just hope this issue can remain focused on the major concern, our kids, kids.
pan