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whats difference between cacao powder and cocoa powder

post #1 of 54
Thread Starter 
I have a recipe that calls for cacao powder and i cant find it, is it the same as cocoa powder
post #2 of 54
Yes, it's the same.
post #3 of 54
[QUOTE whats difference between cacao powder and cocoa powder
][/QUOTE]
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post #4 of 54
**** spoonbread, you beat me to it.:D
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post #5 of 54

Raw cacao powder is NOT the same as cocoa powder.

Raw cacao powder is unadulterated and contains many more nutrients than traditional cocoa powder. It's sold mostly via health food stores and online retailers. Just google raw cacao powder to find retailers like rawguru.com, vitacost.com, and livesuperfoods.com which all sell the product (note: this is not an endorsement of any retailer). Many of these retailer sites also promote the benefits of "raw cacao powder." Many recipes are also found on the internet for such things as a banana cacao smoothie. Cacao in its natural state contains no sugars. Ehow.com describes the difference between raw cacao powder and cocoa powder this way:

"Pure, unsweetened cocoa powder tastes very bitter and rich, which is why it is most often used in sweets and confections. To get cocoa powder from the cacao bean, the nibs are first ground into a strong paste. The fat is removed, and the remaining solids are ground up again into a fine dust: cocoa powder. Because of its drying properties, using cocoa powder in a cake often requires the use of more shortening or butter in the recipe.

According to FDA guidelines, cocoa powder and cacao powder are simply different terms for the same powder, and are nearly interchangeable; however, "cacao powder" specifically refers to raw, unsweetened powder. "Cocoa powder," on the other hand, may still have a very small amount of cocoa butter present to enhance the flavor subtly."
post #6 of 54

I disagree with GoodcatchM

..and here is my reasoning and experience of 15 years in the cocoa business, and as a chemical engineer.

Cocoa powder and cacao powder is the same.
What is considered "raw" cacao is suppose to be a cocoa powder that has been in a process that never exceeded 110 degrees Fahrenheit...which is already an almost impossible scenario, since cocoa beans are grown in the Equator, and you may exceed that temperature while drying in the patio under the sun covered with black linens (to heat it up and allow the fermentation of the bean)....and yes, you need to dry them, otherwise they will rotten in a few days, and the shell will be too difficult to peel off.

Back to cocoa powder....
ALL cocoa powder comes from the cocoa bean, which without the shell is called cocoa nib (a.k.a. cacao nib). The first step is grinding of the nib (which again, when you grind something to such small particle size you will create a lot of friction with -that's right - heat!). That will give you the cocoa/cacao paste (a.k.a. cacao mass or liquor), which has about 50 to 56% fat (cocoa butter) in it...and ALL cocoa powders have to go through that stage.

Next stage is to take some of that butter away, which the raw community claims can be done through "cold pressing". For any that don't understand that term, cold pressing is done with oils like olive oil to preserve the oil almost intact by cooling the press plates while applying pressure (pressure generates heat, therefore it needs to be cooled). But here is a reminder, olive oil is liquid in room temperature, cocoa butter is SOLID, and it STARTS melting at about 100 degrees Fahrenheit ... so, you cannot control and cool it to a point where it will be still in a solid phase, because it cannot be pressed and "flow" out.

Last operation is to grind the solids left in the press, again - heat...and there is your cocoa powder or cacao powder... you tell me if you call it "raw", a term not defined by the FDA for cocoa, and that can be used by anyone just to sell the cocoa to a much higher price. Maybe that is why bigger, more serious companies don't have this product, since they do not want to be liable for false advertising...

Regarding "Raw" cocoa nibs or cocoa beans...yes, that is possible, and the only concern is the high bacteriological plate count... but how much you want to train your immune system is up to each individual. And yes, the less manipulated the cocoa, the more polyphenols and healthy chemicals you will obtain from it.

There is also a difference between alkalized or ducthed powders, and the natural ones (which do not contain any potassium carbonate), being the second ones the ones containing more of the healthy properties (antioxidants). But that is totally different than claiming a "raw" cocoa powder.

So, that is my explanation, and again, I respect anyone's opinion on what they want to eat or how they want to consume it. I just disagree with misleading the general public just to make juicy profits.
post #7 of 54

Thank you, CocoaLady

Thanks for the information. I don't mind being corrected. This has been a learning process for me. Perhaps I was misguided and misinformed.
post #8 of 54

I Too Thank You CocoaLady

Or could that be CacaoLady? ;-)

Thanks very much for the detailed explanation. You took the words right off of my keyboard.

It is frustrating to me when foodies, and especially "professional" chefs buy in to the erroneous claims to simply attempt to squeeze more unearned profits out of the unsuspecting public.

I think it is Barnum who is quoted as saying that there is a fool born every minute. These days I think that there is a sheister born every other minute at least.

Best thing to keep in mind is; buyer beware. Don't just swallow every piece of information thrown at you. Investigate and inform yourself of the facts. - And no; I don't mean look it up on Wikipedia. That too must be taken with a grain of salt (so to speak - and another one of those new marketing gimmicks for chocolate).

Cheers!
Success is getting to eat your mistakes along the way.........

35 years of baking and pastry making, and every day still brings new learning opportunities.
Happy Baking! Cheers! Mr. Pastry
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Success is getting to eat your mistakes along the way.........

35 years of baking and pastry making, and every day still brings new learning opportunities.
Happy Baking! Cheers! Mr. Pastry
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post #9 of 54

educational!

thanks for the insight

I have seen this in several different places and I have to admit I am sceptical as to the raw claims as well. I am a massive chocoholic and have a great interest in how foods are processed and what it takes to "get them to the plate" so I've done a bit of research. Everything I've found agrees that the "Raw" label is hype. Cocoa in it's raw state bears no resemblence to powder at all so it seems to me this is how people make what they want to eat fit into their chosen diet.

But hey I'm skeptical by nature & it's just my opininon
post #10 of 54
In short, if you’re after the raw product, go for ‘cacao’ whereas ‘cocoa’ refers to the processed product.
post #11 of 54
Well it's the same, but not all the powder are the same.
However here in Italy we have only CACAO (cocoa does not exist as a word) so if there was a difference we would have had two kinds of CACAO powder. The difference is on the ingredients and here labels HAVE to tell you percentage of cacao, where it comes from, percentage of cacao butter and so one.
post #12 of 54

Cocoa powder is made when chocolate liquor is pressed to remove three quarters of its cocoa butter.  The remaining cocoa solids are processed to make fine unsweetened cocoa powder.   There are two types of unsweetened cocoa powder: natural and Dutch-processed.
post #13 of 54

Thanks to all for the info on cocoa and cacao. With the different percentages in solid cocoa bars on the store shelves I get thoroughly confused.

post #14 of 54

Thanks so much for the information.  I'm interested in the oxalic acid content of cocoa or cacao.  I am trying to get my husbands oxalic acid count in his body up to help fight his cancer.  I know this is  balancing act because your body will produce citric acid to eliminate the oxalic acid when it gets too high in the kidney.  Anyway, any information or source of information you may have about chocolate and oxalic acid would be appreciated.

thanks j

post #15 of 54

J Phares Funk,

 

I would first like to welcome you to Cheftalk. Cancer is such a terrible enemy and I would like to offer you my full support. As you know increasing those levels is something that you may want to discuss with a urologist .

There are other foods that have high levels of oxalic acid like; spinach ( higher than cocoa), rhubarb, parsley and beetroot . Urologists know this info as well and can give you the latest info pertaining to the various foods and their percentages.(ppm-parts per million)

 

Just a thought.

 

Petals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Petals
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Petals
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post #16 of 54

I was curious as to when I read the nutrition label on one can called 100% cocoa power it contains 1 gram od protien and when I look at the lable of a can or bag labeled 100% Raw cacac powder is claims 4 grams of protien. Both are certified organic.

 is this a rip off by the company claiming the 4 grams?

post #17 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by CocoaLady View Post

..and here is my reasoning and experience of 15 years in the cocoa business, and as a chemical engineer.

Cocoa powder and cacao powder is the same.
What is considered "raw" cacao is suppose to be a cocoa powder that has been in a process that never exceeded 110 degrees Fahrenheit...which is already an almost impossible scenario, since cocoa beans are grown in the Equator, and you may exceed that temperature while drying in the patio under the sun covered with black linens (to heat it up and allow the fermentation of the bean)....and yes, you need to dry them, otherwise they will rotten in a few days, and the shell will be too difficult to peel off.

Back to cocoa powder....
ALL cocoa powder comes from the cocoa bean, which without the shell is called cocoa nib (a.k.a. cacao nib). The first step is grinding of the nib (which again, when you grind something to such small particle size you will create a lot of friction with -that's right - heat!). That will give you the cocoa/cacao paste (a.k.a. cacao mass or liquor), which has about 50 to 56% fat (cocoa butter) in it...and ALL cocoa powders have to go through that stage.

Next stage is to take some of that butter away, which the raw community claims can be done through "cold pressing". For any that don't understand that term, cold pressing is done with oils like olive oil to preserve the oil almost intact by cooling the press plates while applying pressure (pressure generates heat, therefore it needs to be cooled). But here is a reminder, olive oil is liquid in room temperature, cocoa butter is SOLID, and it STARTS melting at about 100 degrees Fahrenheit ... so, you cannot control and cool it to a point where it will be still in a solid phase, because it cannot be pressed and "flow" out.

Last operation is to grind the solids left in the press, again - heat...and there is your cocoa powder or cacao powder... you tell me if you call it "raw", a term not defined by the FDA for cocoa, and that can be used by anyone just to sell the cocoa to a much higher price. Maybe that is why bigger, more serious companies don't have this product, since they do not want to be liable for false advertising...

Regarding "Raw" cocoa nibs or cocoa beans...yes, that is possible, and the only concern is the high bacteriological plate count... but how much you want to train your immune system is up to each individual. And yes, the less manipulated the cocoa, the more polyphenols and healthy chemicals you will obtain from it.

There is also a difference between alkalized or ducthed powders, and the natural ones (which do not contain any potassium carbonate), being the second ones the ones containing more of the healthy properties (antioxidants). But that is totally different than claiming a "raw" cocoa powder.

So, that is my explanation, and again, I respect anyone's opinion on what they want to eat or how they want to consume it. I just disagree with misleading the general public just to make juicy profits.

This is the BEST explanation I've found!

post #18 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harleeg View Post

Thank you for the info CocoaLady. Just wondering, have you heard of Crio Bru? I'm wondering if it is just another name for cocoa beans, raw or otherwise. I'm confused. Could it be another consumer con? I would be very interested on your opinion on this.                   http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=crio%20bru&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.criobru.com.au%2Fcrio-beans%2F&ei=TxBKT-qsO4-TiQe2zrSRDg&usg=AFQjCNGZVCk7Z5xxoHNB_dMkzjnBg_sWbA&sig2=UseJ-iJbaMTc4FIVU7XmWA
The "Bru" part is a brand name. Crio is a type or genus of cocoa bean known for it particular flavor, or bitterness. If memory serves; it is only grown in certain regions of South America.
Success is getting to eat your mistakes along the way.........

35 years of baking and pastry making, and every day still brings new learning opportunities.
Happy Baking! Cheers! Mr. Pastry
Reply
Success is getting to eat your mistakes along the way.........

35 years of baking and pastry making, and every day still brings new learning opportunities.
Happy Baking! Cheers! Mr. Pastry
Reply
post #19 of 54

J Phares Funk,

 

taro leaves are high in oxalic acid, and cooking the leaves neutralises it.  My friend was poisoned when he didn't cook the leaves thoroughly.  Lucky I could taste there was something wrong so i didn't eat it.

 

taro is found in the pacific islands, and we also get it here, in New Zealand

post #20 of 54

Let's get it straight.  I think cocoalady had the definitive explanation by majority agreement.  Her explanation, I think, was that the two substances are supposed to be different but that the supposed difference is unreal, unattainable, not true, doesn't happen.

 

 Right here:   "raw" cacao is suppose to be a cocoa powder that has been in a process that never exceeded 110 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

 So there's the answer: Under today's technology they're theoretically different but practically the same.

 

 agreed?

 

 :)

 

p.s.  Hence a good drink of cocoa is virtually as good as a piece of chocolate.

post #21 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by J Phares Funk View Post

Thanks so much for the information.  I'm interested in the oxalic acid content of cocoa or cacao.  I am trying to get my husbands oxalic acid count in his body up to help fight his cancer.  I know this is  balancing act because your body will produce citric acid to eliminate the oxalic acid when it gets too high in the kidney.  Anyway, any information or source of information you may have about chocolate and oxalic acid would be appreciated.

thanks j


Further to petalsandcoco's reply, Sorrel is also very high in oxalic acid, can be found abundantly wild (at least in the UK) or easily grown from seed (and it's a pretty hardy plant), and tastes delicious (quite strong citrus flavours, great in salad). There is something else wild that is also high in oxalic acid, but I can't remember off the top of my head. I guess you already know that too much oxalic acid in one go can be dangerous and painful.

You may also want to research Soursop & THC oil (I have no experience in their effects on fighting cancer - I have heard that they are both very effective, but also that they have been debunked).

Hope that helps, wishing you all the best.

post #22 of 54

thanks to both Good catch and Cocoa lady

I was not so interested in the 'raw' marketing aspect, just the difference between cacao powder and cocoa powder, as common sense did seem to attest to their similiarity

both these posts have been very helpful and interesting as i love to know about the origins of foods

 

CAN ANYONE TELL ME MORE ABOUT 'KONJI'. I KNOW ABOUT KONJI SEEDS (BLACK CUMIN) BUT RECENTLY CAME ACROSS A PRODUCT: LO GI GLUTEN FREE NOODLES WITH KONJI  FLOUR AS THEIR BASE INGREDIENT...??

post #23 of 54

soory, forgot the topic rule, have started new thread on konji! ta

post #24 of 54

Cocolady is implying that the heat in the processing is the heat inadvertantly generated in the process of drying, pressing etc. I enquired one of the suppliers of these products and he gave me the following flow chart for production of cacao powder. He states that the beans are actually roasted, although he does not know the temperature they are subjected to during the roasting process. Here is the flow chart:

 

 

Flow Chart for the Production of Cocoa

Powder Natural

 

Cocoa Beans

 

 

Cleaning and

Roasting

 

 

Winnowing and

Milling

 

 

Refining/

Sterilization

 

Pressing

 

Breaking

 

Pulverized and

Screening

 

Metal Detection

 

Cocoa Powder

 

Pulverized and

Screening

 

Winnowing and

Milling

 

Cleaning and

Roasting

 

Refining/

Sterilization

 

Pressing

 

Breaking

 

Metal Detection

 

Cocoa Powder

 

 

The information given is based on our current knowledge and

experience, and may be used at your discretion and risk

post #25 of 54

Actually, they are quite different products. Here is how cacao pdr is made

How is Raw Cacao Powder Made?
The process starts with premium Criollo variety of cacao beans. The organic cacao beans are cold pressed into a paste and then pressed at a maximum temperature of 116 degrees to remove fats and oils. The remainder is cold-ground to produce the Organic Raw Cacao Powder.

 

And this is coco pdr.

 

To make Dutched cocoa powder, chocolate liquor is pumped into giant hydraulic presses, where about half of the cocoa butter is squeezed out. Baking soda is added to the remaining material, which is called "press cake." The treated press cake is then cooled, pulverized, and sifted to form cocoa powder.

 

if you do some research you will see the heating changes the nutritional value of the nibs

post #26 of 54

I recently bought organic cocao nibs and put them in the thermomix for a few seconds and now have cocao powder, without anything being taken away from it or added to it. Perfect.

post #27 of 54
Quote:

To make Dutched cocoa powder, chocolate liquor is pumped into giant hydraulic presses, where about half of the cocoa butter is squeezed out. Baking soda is added to the remaining material, which is called "press cake." The treated press cake is then cooled, pulverized, and sifted to form cocoa powder.

 

 

 

No dearie, "Dutched" is a process where the entire bean is treated with alkalai, it's purpose is to remove bitterness.  However, a good bean should not be bitter.  It is then roasted, ground, milled, etc.  "Dutching"  was invented by Van Houten back in the 1800's.

 

Also, more than "half" of the cocoa butter is removed, a lot more.  A bean contains well over 52% cocoa butter, usually there is 10-12% residual cocoa butter in the cocoa powder.  If there is any more, you wouldn't get cocoa powder.

...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
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post #28 of 54

I hope your husband's cancer treatment is going well.  Re oxalic acid, high amounts of oxalic acid such as from sorrel, chocolate/cocoa, and rhubarb, are not recommended as not only does it put a strain on the kidneys which are probably working harder now trying to rid his body of toxins, but can also form kidney stones along with the presence of inorganic calcium from drinking water, for example.  (Distilled water is best to flush out toxins).  If you are going down the antioxidant route, liposomic vitamin C comes highly recommended, which you can make yourself at home (check out vids on youtube, and do try the sodium bicarb as it's cheap and harmless in small doses, anyway), and works better than intravenous vitamin C for oxygenating the tissues, but any anti-cancer regime must eliminate sugar and forms high in sugar which feed cancer, much like it does a fungus.  So cocoa in foods or drinks is good, but chocolate is good and bad because on the one hand it feeds the cancer (through the sugar) and on the other it helps the immune system fight it (through the antioxidants.).  Anyway, good luck, and I hope everything is going well.

post #29 of 54

Hi everyone!
I had asked somewhere else what is the difference in ingredients between milk and dark chocolate. I was told that milk had much more sugar. However, many darker chocolates have the same amount of sugar for the same serving as milk chocolates. One of many examples is Hershey's & Dove dark and milk chocolate containing the same amount of sugar for the same serving size. Yet one has a bitter taste, and the other does not. I did find some lower sugar darks since then for my dad to enjoy, yey! Like the 70% and 80% Lindts. But your average dark chocolate has the same amount of sugar as milk....

So I wonder then, what is else is it that makes milk chocolate *milk* ?  I tried using cocoa powder unsweetened and adding sugar one time and erythritol the 2nd time. In both cases the mix turned sweeter, but the bitterness remained. Perhaps a little less bitter, but never did completely go away. And adding more sugar just made it overly sweet while maintaining the bitterness, so just a strong flavor all around. Again it makes me realize there is something else in milk chocolate that is perhaps not in dark? Does anyone know what it is? I hope it's not something not so good for us. As it is, my goal was to make something healthy by using unsweetened cocoa and a non harmful sugar sub.

 

Any help appreciated, thanks!
 

post #30 of 54

Uh, milk?
 

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