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Ethics of Foie Gras?

post #1 of 15
9/3/01 at 6:28am
Thread Starter 
Now I'm not a radical vegetarian or anything, but have any of you considered the ethical nature of producing and eating foie gras? I know many people adore the stuff; it is delicious when properly prepared.
I can reconcile myself to the slaughter of animals as a protien source for the general population. The production of foie gras involves torturing geese for 4-5 months-which is something else entirely. The geese are kept in confining cages which don't allow them to move at all. Rings are fitted around their necks to prevent regurgitation; then they are force- fed for 4-5 months before slaughter. This causes the liver to swell from a normal 3-4 oz. to 3-4 pounds at harvest.

What do you think? Is this food a necessary part of our human food chain? Is a unique delicacy worth the routine torture of these birds?

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post #2 of 15
9/3/01 at 6:47am
Well, I have never tried Foie Gras, because I hate liver and I am afraid of it.

Now I have a perfectly good reason for never eating it. I don't eat veal either for the same reason. I have mixed feelings about eating meat anyway. I was a vegetarian for several years, primarily in opposition to corporate farming and the treatment of food animals.

That is a really disgusting story.
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post #3 of 15
9/3/01 at 7:30am
A quote from larousse gastronmique writing about traditional foods of Alsace "The Goose is nothing,but man has made it an instrument for the output of a marvellous product,A kind of living hothouse in witch there grows the supreme fruit of gastronomy" The French,while acknowledging that the practice is carried to quite the unnatural lenghts,are apt to say that the birds themselves grow to like there extra daily rations of Maize,pushed down ther throat with a special funnel.
Some say the pratice of enlarging the liver dated back to ancient Rome,some say it started even before in ancient Eygept,Then picked up by the Jews.
I have had Foie Gras many times...It is in my mind one of the true culinary delights.
Being a Chef if I had to base my entire culinary style on the way animals are treated I probably would become a choir boy.
Foie Gras is just one of many end products that find there way to our plates that have gone through "ringer"
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Baruch ben Rueven / Chanaבראד, ילד של ריימונד והאלאן
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post #4 of 15
9/3/01 at 8:31am
Thread Starter 
Which other culinary delights are produced by a similar method of torture?
While I cannot judge Larrouse and his writing by today's ethical standards, isn't it time we move beyond such methods?

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Liquored up and laquered down,
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post #5 of 15
9/3/01 at 9:26pm
Ortolans (or europeaon bundting)Used to be so prolific in France,Now they are nearly extinct becouse of them being devourered purely for there taste.They are half the size of a quial.They are know illegal to eat.But do you recall when Ducasse opened his restuarant in New York?he snuck in the birds and prepared them for the press to eat.They all had large towels over there heads so they would not be Idenified.
Also,Debeaked chickens all crammed together in the coop,Calves being forse feed and made to be inclosed in a tiny cubicle for 23 hours a day,Also..When a steer is being led to slaughter they can smell the blood and death of the cattle before them,so they know whats coming. I don't want to even discuss what are done to "LIVE" monkeys in parts of Asia for culinary eating.
cc
Baruch ben Rueven / Chanaבראד, ילד של ריימונד והאלאן
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post #6 of 15
9/3/01 at 9:36pm
The gooses in France, if my memory serves me, are free to walk and swim. They are not in cage like chicken. The force feeding last less then a minute a day.

Do I think it's right? I'm not sure.

Do I think animals destined to end up as meat are, in general, badly treated? Yes I do.

I was somewhat disgusted by the treatment of animals and all that is put into it. I am not eating meat these days, haven’t for a while. I will not say I am vegetarian because I do like meat and poultry and will want to have some once in a while. I’ll make sure it’s bio before buying it. I base my alimentation on the Mediterranean diet. Where poultry is eaten about once a week and red meat once a month. Fish, legumes and grains are eaten more often with lots of fruits and veggies. For now it suits me.
When I get a little money, I buy books. And if there is any left over, I buy food.

- Desiderius Erasmus
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post #7 of 15
9/3/01 at 10:53pm
It might not change everything,
But you have to remember that the concept of enlarged liver in geese not being natural is wrong.

Migrating geese fatten themselves up before journy. The liver is similar to a camel's hump - a store of energy.
The egyptian and romans discovered that geese before migration has a wonderful surprise in them.

Now that not to say the treatment they get in farms is good. But let not by hippocrits about meat. All meat is the dead carcass of an animal, raised and murdered for human consumption.
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post #8 of 15
9/4/01 at 4:21am
Yummmmmmmmm, I'm hungry. Let's eat!
At weddings, my Aunts would poke me in the ribs and cackle "You're next!". They stopped when I started doing the same to them at funerals.
www.kyleskitchen.net
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post #9 of 15
9/4/01 at 5:32am
In «Foie Gras: A Passion», Ginor takes the mystery out of contemporary production of foie gras, which has in recent years evolved from tradition's geese to more productive, less unstable ducks. He points out that "force feeding" of ducks to fatten their livers does not involve the cruelty to animals that many might suppose. Moreover, the other parts of the specially raised duck are used so that no waste occurs. Thus, gourmets who already eat meat products need feel no special guilt and may chow down as much foie gras as their own digestive systems can bear!!
K

«Money talks. Chocolate sings. Beautifully.»
«Just Give Me Chocolate and Nobody Gets Hurt.»
«Coffee, Chocolate, Men ... Some things are just better rich.»
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post #10 of 15
9/4/01 at 6:07am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the updated info, Kimmie. I hope I don't give the wrong impression by my posts. Again, I'm not a radical vegetarian, but I do consider the ethical questions that arise involving the production of the foods we eat.

For example, I don't eat veal-mainly because, to me, the taste of the stuff does not have enough appeal to warrant the treatment of the animals concerned. Other things that make me stop and consider- wild salmon, wild game that are protected in some countries but wind up on restaurant tables (lion, for instance), among others.

The prevalence of factory farming of animals also bothers me-for both environmental and humane reasons. Thus, I try to buy free range meats. But how can I be assured of quality production and humane processing? The truth is, I can't; but I can make the effort to obtain such foods and consider other options when making food purchases.

My broader question to all cheftalk friends is: What are your thoughts on these issues? Do they concern you and your fellow diners and cooks? What, if any, concessions do you make for the humane treatment of food animals, the environment and biodiversity? Or is the prevailing attitude one of "anything for the ultimate dining experience?"

[ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: foodnfoto ]

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Liquored up and laquered down,
She's got the biggest hair in town!

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post #11 of 15
9/4/01 at 7:29am
I go back and forth between various degrees of veg*nism and occasional carni-voring.

At the moment, I am eating meat; I seem to need it right now, for various reasons. I'm sticking with fish and chicken still, since I found I couldn't stomach the taste of red meat at all any more.

However, even when I am eating meat, I don't eat "livers'n'lights." They're the body's main organs of elimination of toxins. Given the vastly increased volume and omnipresence of environmental poisons, hormones and other badness, it strikes me as a very, very bad idea to deliberately go out of one's way to eat the very parts of an animal where - if anywhere - these things would be most concentrated.

Cruelty? Eating animals or animal products involves some degree of what's ironically called "inhumane" practices in any event. Why it's called inhumane, I don't know. Seems to me that manipulation and exploitation of other beings of any species is a deeply rooted, if regrettable, human trait.
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post #12 of 15
9/4/01 at 10:29am
I second that Iza. A partial solution is to stick with free-range and Kosher!
K

«Money talks. Chocolate sings. Beautifully.»
«Just Give Me Chocolate and Nobody Gets Hurt.»
«Coffee, Chocolate, Men ... Some things are just better rich.»
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post #13 of 15
9/4/01 at 1:06pm
Peter Singer, the philosopher who hates being called an animal rights activist introduced the concept of equal consideration which I quite agree with in this case. In fact, equal consideration has become almost axiomatic for me whenever I think about theories of value and ethics. Simply stated, the principle of equal consideration is as follows:

Equal consideration is treating the interests of both parties in the same way.

Since true equality is not achievable, at least not in the strict sense of the term, we ought to consider each position with the same weight, under the set of values to which these positions subscribe, and under the our own set of rules or values.

From this position, it does not really matter whether or not these geese are being treated cruelly. One is asked to consider the treatment of these geese in the same way one would consider the treatment of Veal. Shahar made a very good point about being hypocrites, that is to say, if you give a regular Black Angus Steer and a Forcefed Goose equal consideration under the principle that meat is just part of a carcass, and if you conclude that Foie Gras is bad, then you cannot conclude that it is allright to eat Beef.

I like Foie Gras. I also like Veal and Turtle eggs. I really can't see myself eating Monkey Brain nor can I see myself eating live grubs off the carcass of a human like some tribes in Papua New Guinea. That's just revolting to me.

Kuan
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post #14 of 15
9/4/01 at 2:23pm
Okay, so what about Kobe beef? The steer are definitely not treated inhumanely. As a matter of fact, they are pampered with a special grain diet (and it's even fermented!), massaged twice a day and are left to roam as they please in a country where free space is a commodity to begin with. In the end they are slaughtered, probably less drastically than mass produced American beef, but still the intention and outcome is the same. Is it okay then, for us to manipulate the steer in Kobe to get a delicacy up there with Foie Gras?

As for Salmon, I had a conversation recently with someone who told me that we have been eating so much farm-raised salmon that the wild population has made it's comeback. He also said that farm-rasied salmon is an irony becuase they are carnivorous. The farmers feed them smaller fish that they fish from the ocean. So, while salmon are making a comeback, the smaller fish (more important ecologically as they are lower on the food chain) are still being overfished. Thus, ocean fish are still in danger despite our seemingly humane efforts.

Who was it who said that industrialization will be the end of humanity was right on the money.
SmartGirl to the rescue!
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post #15 of 15
9/4/01 at 9:59pm
Last winter there was a week television news programs on the production of meat and poultry. I found the practices of the industry disgusting. In all honesty that combine with the diseases in our meat were in part responsible for my decision to stop eating meat and poultry. I will not say I am vegetarian because I want to have poultry and meat on occasion.

I do think the farming of animals raise for their meat are very cruelly treated. What bothers me even more is the fact that we are turning herbivore into meat eater. Who on earth decided to feed grind up left over meat to other animal? We created the problems we are having with mad cow disease etc.

People are more and more conscious of what they eat. It’s visible in our markets and supermarkets. There is an increasing interest in where the food come from and how it was produce. Main stream supermarket are selling organic products and grain fed chicken is widely available. In public market some butcher only sell free range and certified bio meat and poultry. If this trend continue the traditional meat and poultry producers will have no choice but to examine their practice and change the way meat is produce and change their practices or risk loosing their clientele.
When I get a little money, I buy books. And if there is any left over, I buy food.

- Desiderius Erasmus
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