Commercial ranges in home kitchen? - Page 2

Whoops my bad I put 4 star in my post, but 4-5 years ago they were major repair nightmares.

I don't know if they have changed - but good job looking at other venues.

yeah, craigslist seems to be a viable option.

now i'm leaning toward a 48" commericial/residential since the biggest reason for going for two ovens is to simply have room for a second dish that needs a different temp. i think a 48" with the mini side oven could do the trick.

then again i've changed my mind 4000 times in about 3 days, so who knows.

Damian,

It's such an exciting project, it's almost impossible not to fantasize oneself into your situation.

You said something about 200 sq ft., but not about the actual dimensions. 25' x 8'? 16' x 16'? What. Those are very different kitchens.

Have you set your design yet? If so, what is it?

FWIW, the trend in kitchen designs for multiple sinks is so that each cook gets his (or her) own "station."

Multiple stove tops, ranges, wall ovens, etc., can be for the same thing; or to get the second stove top (and/or oven) somewhere it uses less valuable real estate than the goddam middle of the counter. After all, most meals are cooked on one or two burners, and one oven -- at most; and when you want more burners and an extra oven, you generally don't need them to have all of the high-zoot features. Counter space, though is always at a premium.

It used to be a way to save money, but stove pricing has changed. Multiple refrigerators and/or freezers are sometimes worthwhile as well.

BDL

The actual space is about 16 x 13. I definitely want more input. I will try to remember to bring my drawings into work tomorrow so I can scan them and post them here.

It's a lot of room to work with, but it's challenging because it's in the basement and there are an egress window, electrical box, and a couple poles to contend with.

here you go. going to put it in my other thread about kitchens, too.

i used some crappy software so not everything is 100% correct. the upper left corner is actually a closet where the sump pump is. to the right of it is a planned butler's pantry.

all the way on the right wall past the big dining table is the stairway. the room to the bottom right is the utility room, so that can't go anywhere.

on the left wall, the long skinny rectangle is a tv, with a couch in front of it. that is going to be a sofa bed, and it's the only place a tv makes sense, so that is pretty much going to stay.

everything in the kitchen area is just my imagination at this point. the two tiny boxes represent basement support poles. the window on the left wall in the bottom left corner is an egress window. the other window on the bottom wall is a crappy basement window that gets no light anyway because the deck is over it, so it can be covered. the electrical box is just to the left of it, so i'm thinking of putting a pantry here to cover both of them up. the box in the middle is probably a cart, not an island.

the box just to the right of the bottom window is the refrigerator, and obviously that's the range next to it (probably going to be a 48"). the sink is a corner sink opposite the range, near the bar stools, so whoever is at the sink can face the entertaining area. the sink is pretty much limited to the right wall of the kitchen because that is where the plumbing is. just to the left of the corner will be the dishwasher.

also, the width of the kitchen is 17' 6". From the bottom wall to the support poles is 12'.

Damian,

A few preliminary questions.

How high are the ceilings?

What's your budget like? I.e, is it luxury, medium, or very tight?

Can you afford one or two special features? Some examples are a wok burner, a pizza oven, an indoor grill, and so on.

How often do you entertain?

How many cooks in your kitchen when you do?

Are you wine, and/or beer, and/or cocktail drinkers when it's just the immediate family? When you entertain?

Do you want a desk as part of your kitchen?

Presumably the empty room in your drawing is a bathroom, since the common wall holds the drain. Is it impossible (impossibility includes way "too expensive") to run a drain to any other wall?

There doesn't seem to be any provision for getting ingredients down to the kitchen from the car, or snacks, drinks, etc., up to the house from the basement. Is a dumb waiter a possibility?

May I be blunt without risking hurt feelings?

Here are a few (fairly blunt) thoughts right off the bat:

• Considering you're working with 17-1/2 x 12, the most efficient and overall best shape is going to be a modified galley with a "U" at one end. Your "L" won't work well for the "entertainment kitchen" in a "great room."
• Your "breakfast table" is a waste of space. Instead, integrate a 16" of extra width for a bar, on to a 10' counter at the "top" coming off the left wall on the top of the kitchen.
• If at all possible, put your main (or only) sink in this counter, with the stove opposite it on the bottom wall. Alternatively, put your main hot area (whether a stove top or a range) in the bar. Either way, you'll not only improve your sight lines, but you can make better use of architectural features like your range hood(s), pot shelves, pot rack, or even cabinets with glass doors on both sides.
• Despite what DC said, your "triangle" sucks; both in terms of efficiency and in terms of working with sight-lines to the rest of the room.
• Given the amount of floor, counter, and wall space you have, it's to your benefit to think in terms of a "square" (pantry, refrigerator, sink(s), stove(s), rather than the old fashioned triangle.
• There are a great many good reasons to have two sinks -- the best being accomodating two cooks at the same time. There are even more good reasons for two hot areas.
• Whether you can run a drain or not, you're going to have to run electricity all over the place. Reconcile yourself to it.
• Baking area: You need one.

Hope this inspires a few thoughts,
BDL

"How high are the ceilings?"

7' 6"

"What's your budget like? I.e, is it luxury, medium, or very tight?"

medium. i will splurge on things that will make a difference, like the range.

"Can you afford one or two special features? Some examples are a wok burner, a pizza oven, an indoor grill, and so on."

not interested in any of these. it's in a basement so the added costs of safety and venilation considerations are prohibitive.

"How often do you entertain?"

about once a month

"How many cooks in your kitchen when you do?"

1-2

"Are you wine, and/or beer, and/or cocktail drinkers when it's just the immediate family? When you entertain? "

wine. there will be a wine cellar under the stairs, and i have about 1000 wine racks all over the house.

"Do you want a desk as part of your kitchen?"

no

"Presumably the empty room in your drawing is a bathroom, since the common wall holds the drain. Is it impossible (impossibility includes way "too expensive") to run a drain to any other wall?"

the empty room is furnace, water heater, and laundry. the further from that wall the sink is, the crappier the drain will work, so i am going to keep it close.

"There doesn't seem to be any provision for getting ingredients down to the kitchen from the car, or snacks, drinks, etc., up to the house from the basement. Is a dumb waiter a possibility?"

yeah, i'm the dumb waiter. this is not an everyday kitchen, so it's not a concern.

• Considering you're working with 17-1/2 x 12, the most efficient and overall best shape is going to be a modified galley with a "U" at one end. Your "L" won't work well for the "entertainment kitchen" in a "great room."

unfortunately, the electrical box and the egress window on the left wall prevent anything of substance from being put there.

• Your "breakfast table" is a waste of space. Instead, integrate a 16" of extra width for a bar, on to a 10' counter at the "top" coming off the left wall on the top of the kitchen.
• If at all possible, put your main (or only) sink in this counter, with the stove opposite it on the bottom wall. Alternatively, put your main hot area (whether a stove top or a range) in the bar. Either way, you'll not only improve your sight lines, but you can make better use of architectural features like your range hood(s), pot shelves, pot rack, or even cabinets with glass doors on both sides.

as noted above, plumbing considerations make this difficult. also, the indicated tv will not be moved, so it makes any counter on that side difficult.

• Despite what DC said, your "triangle" sucks; both in terms of efficiency and in terms of working with sight-lines to the rest of the room.
• Given the amount of floor, counter, and wall space you have, it's to your benefit to think in terms of a "square" (pantry, refrigerator, sink(s), stove(s), rather than the old fashioned triangle.
• There are a great many good reasons to have two sinks -- the best being accomodating two cooks at the same time. There are even more good reasons for two hot areas.
• Whether you can run a drain or not, you're going to have to run electricity all over the place. Reconcile yourself to it.
• Baking area: You need one.

noted, thanks

I wasn't sure whether your plan was for an only or a second kitchen; and just went ahead and looked at it as the primary -- oops. I still think the "breakfast table" is a space waster, unless it's not a breakfast table but a card table -- in which case, maybe that's the best place for a card table. Similarly, my comments regarding the overall shape of the kitchen -- galley is better than "L" -- true for a general purpose kitchen, but I don't have enough of a feel (or expertise) for what you want to give really comprehensive advice.

I've designed and built a few kitches -- one for myself and a few more for real-estate flyers, so I've got a little experience and have given the subject some thought -- but you're into uncharted waters (at least for me).

BDL

i agree that the table (which isn't necessarily breakfast, but also general use) takes up a lot of space that could be utilized for kitchen stuff. however, the window on that wall (the egress window) faces east and is going to be pretty huge. believe it or not, it's the only east facing window in the entire house (our upstairs kitching/dining area has north facing windows/doorwall only). so in addition to adding extra seating for larger gatherings, i did think it would be nice to be able to have breakfast down there in actual sunlight in the summer. another plan put the refrigerator on that left wall (instead of the table) for a larger triangle, and a horizontal island and/or longer peninsula for more seating. i'm still bouncing all of these suggestions around since not much is final yet, other than working around basement inconveniences like ductwork.

Thanks for the recommendations. I'm doing a small kitchen remodel (countertops/appliances). I've been eyeing a 36" Wolf for a while, but now I'm rethinking my aspirations. 22k BTU.... that should put on a nice sear!

Use Ice machine

You must also contain some ice machine in your kitchen,which add some glory to your kitchen.

"To top it off, the whole thing is really simple. No expensive electronics to go wrong - it does one thing, and one thing really well - cooks food." Mattwright, you are SO right! We put in a BlueStar 30" slide-in rangetop, and like you, absolutely LOVE it. It is a cooking TOOL, a serious stove for serious cooks. Finally, we're enjoying our kitchen experience!

The up end of the BlueStar line is great. And they cook beautifully. There are some with 21k btu burners (that's hot!) and they're almost as fast as a big real commercial range. We've got one in our new kitchen and love it. But the other thing I put in that we fought over was a two burner induction unit. I got one of the commercial ones (mine is made by Cook-Tek) and it's got 2 3KW burners and it was pricey. But for boiling water, pasta, oatmeal, soups, etc., the induction is MUCH faster than the gas range. Also, it doesn't heat up the kitchen like the big gas stove will. We're in Arizona and it can be 115 degrees outside in the summer. So NOT putting any more stress on our AC units is always a good thing! The induction engine puts the heat in the pan, and all the energy you pay for goes into the pan, not into the kitchen. Induction is as controllable as Gas, and no, I didn't believe it could be at first, either. But it really is. If I had it to do again, I'd have put in a pair of the high output induction units and then added a smaller gas range top (maybe four burners?) or even one of the nicer residential small gas cook tops. Or two of the Wolf or Miele single burner "Wok" burners (18000 btu's) along with the induction cooktop.

This time round the induction was an "after thought" and I tucked the burners in an island we have. The stove is opposite the island on a wall. Because the induction burners are flat glass with no raised edge, I use it as counter space when I'm not cooking on them. We're in the city of Scottsdale and the building codes here did force me to both sprinklers and a high output vent hood. That added about $3000 to the cost of the stove installation. Going with the four induction and two gas burners as outlined above would have been cheaper AND would have save the $3k on the sprinklers and H/O Vent-a-Hood unit. As for ovens, we almost never use the oven in the stove. We have a pair of Miele ovens - one regular convection and the other is their speed oven which works great for most things (it's small like a microwave and offers regular heat, convection, microwave and any combo of those things together.) If I were living alone, I could easily get by with that one unit as my only oven in the place (note for your condo dwellers where space is tight but you do like the gadgets - this is one gadget that is well worth paying for.) But come to think of it, I've never had a Miele appliance that wasn't the best of the best. I can rave about my new Miele La Perla Dishwashers for twenty minutes. Suffice it to say the dishes look like they've been polished when the cycle is done! Amazing machine that La Perla. Cost like **** and was worth every penny! In fact it was so good I decided to forego a compactor in the kitchen and gained the room for a 2nd Dishwasher and bought another one to match the first one! Back to topic: go try a good induction cooktop either as your main cooking appliance or a secondary. You may be surprised to find you use it more than a big high output ultra-hot gas cooktop. We certainly we shocked to find that the induction is as good as it is! And we use the induction far more than the gas cooktop most of the year round now!

hey matt thanks for the info. i would like to see some pics if you still have them and thanks again.

My wife (the main cook in the family) came across an incredible deal on a Garland Electric Range and wants to bring it into our home kitchen. Would all of the concerns I have seen expressed here apply? Are there any other concerns we should have beyond clearance space? I am in a quandry.