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Dough Rising

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Hi to all. An observation:

As always my dough rises indoors in a covered dough bucket, at about 70 degrees temperature. This time, using identical portions but half the yeast (1 tsp instead of 2 1/4), I placed the dough bucket (with the dough) outside in the full sunlight - at about 75-80 degrees temperature. The dough rose but felt wetter, much wetter than usual. The final product resulted in a loaf that tasted equally moist but the holes were larger and the crumb much lighter. Any comments?

TIA,
Terry :confused:

[ June 07, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

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post #2 of 24
Thread Starter 
Dave:

I reduced the amount of yeast as an experiment to see what would happen. Due to the solar heat, the dough rose faster than it would have inside the house. I thought that perhaps less yeast would have produced a delicate, sour flavor. A recent article in COOK'S ILLUSTRATED (January issue?) mentions that fact.

The gluten felt developed as usual. But, I assume that the higher rising temperature slackened the dough a bit and caused the flour to absorb more moisture. I don't know for sure. :eek:

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 
Dave:

I used SAF Instant Yeast. And yes, the dough may have overrisen/overproofed. I allowed the dough to rise 2 1/2 times it initial size. I punched it down, turned it over, and allowed to double in size. Chafed, shaped, proofed (for 40 minutes) and baked.

It's just that allowing the initial rise to take place in the sun generated a lighter crumb. The results were satisfying althoug the loaf wasn't as tall as I'd like..

Sweating the dough seems to lighten the crumb. The next loaf, I will allow to rise in the sun again. However, I'll shorten the rising and proofing times. We'll see what happens.

[ June 08, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #4 of 24
How long have you been baking bread?
post #5 of 24
Thread Starter 
I've been making bread since FEB 2001.

Allowing the dough to rise in the warm sun loosens the elastic gluten, a prefessional baker tells me, allowing for a quicker rise and perhaps softer crumb.

[ June 11, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #6 of 24
kokopuffs,

Do you have a heating pad lying around? It's also great for getting your dough to rise quicker and you can control the temperature. I'm guessing it's purely the temperature of the heat and not the light that's affecting the rise. :eek:
post #7 of 24
Thread Starter 
That's right, Cchiu, it's the heat and not the light. I've thought about placing the dough bucket in a bowl of warm water, covered with plastic wrap. The heat from sunlight might be somewhat harsh and uncontrollable.

I like the idea of using less yeast, too. Supposedly, better flavors will develop.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #8 of 24
All of the things mentioned in the previous two posts might be true, or they might not be. The key thing in breadmaking is the fermentation that is taking place. And I think it happens fairly quickly with commercial yeast. You can go from kneading to baking to eating in only a couple of hours. To coax the maximum amount of flavor out of the wheat you need looooong fermentations, using either a poolish, a batter-like preferment, or a biga, which is a little bit stiffer. These can ferment for as long as 24 hours before a dough is made. Using less yeast and making the dough the same way is to me,and I don't want to offend, nonsense. You'll get the same bread, only slower. Preferments set up a whole different environment for the fermentation than what is going on in a straight dough. Follow the recipe on the King Arthur bags for white bread, and then make a white bread out of Crust and Crumb, or Amy's Bread and you'll see what mean. Or if you want to see a real extreme, try the Royal Crown Tortano from Artisan Baking in America, which has a 24 hour preferment and a dough so wet you can pour it. But you can make it look just like the picture in the book. I rarely make a straight dough bread anymore. I use sponge and dough, or poolish or biga or I take the sourdough mother out of the fridge. It takes me 3 days to make a hard roll, but they are so different from one made in 3 hours.
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It's not Dairy Queen.
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post #9 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thanks, BigHat, for your time and comments. I think that the book you mentioned, ARTISAN BAKING ACROSS AMERICA, can be procured most anywhere.

I usually use a starter consisting of 1/2 cup whole wheat flour mixed with 1/2 cup milk plus 1/2 cup water and one tsp of yeast. Mix occasionally over a period of about 24 hours before incorporating into a dough. Comments welcome! :D

[ June 12, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #10 of 24
On the subject of the perfect "environment" for letting dough rise, at home another seemingly good option is to turn on the light in your oven when you start even thinking about making bread, put the bowl/bucket etc. of dough in there to rise. For me, seems just enough warmer than room temp to work very well, plus there's zero draft.

Of course, there's always the risk of someone turning the oven on, or the light off.......

Happy baking!
post #11 of 24
I let my dough rise in the microwave. It's draft free, doesn't use up counter space, and it's not like I'll be using it to "cook" with. ;)
post #12 of 24
All right. You are using a preferment. Right now in my small town there are mass quantities of bags of Amish Friendship bread starter being dropped off on unsuspecting people. The instructions tell you to mix milk, sugar and flour and feed this thing. Personally, my pucker factor goes off the chart at the idea of milk left to rot at room temperature like that. I don't know that a preferment needs it. 24 hours might be enough time for the wild yeasts living on organic or chemical free whole wheat flour to start feeding. But commercial yeast can overwhelm them. I might put the milk in the dough, but I'd leave it out of the preferment. I'm not sure if it's providing any food for the yeast. Don't know if they can eat milk sugar. There are enzymes in flour and yeasts, the acronym is DIZ. Diastase, Inverstase, and Zymase. That's the order they go after the nutrients in the flour. Yeast are eating the sugar stored in the starch in flour and replicating, and pumping out carbon dioxide and alcohol. I was thinking about why I don't think using less yeast in a formula would work all that well and decided that it's because of the growth curve of yeast. I just think that the dough might get old before the yeast had enough time to replicate to build up the gas necessary to leaven the weight of the dough. Somewhere, in a book called The New International Confectioner, there is a table and a formula for figuring out how much yeast you need to leaven a given quantity of dough in a given amount of time. I don't freelance much with formulas..pretty much use them as they're written. Been baking bread for a while now, but don't think I'm smart enough to make something up. Take that back. I did improvise on something I got in school and got a great sour rye out of it after much tweaking. Kokopuffs, have you read any of those books I mentioned? I've corresponded via email with Maggie Glezer, and I audited one of Peter Reinhart's classes. They're both very approachable.
It's not Dairy Queen.
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It's not Dairy Queen.
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post #13 of 24
Thread Starter 
Hi BigHat:

I briefly perused ARTISAN BAKING AROSS AMERICA. I plan to get a copy this payday. The book explains certain scientific facts and baking procedures that I've never seen in all the other texts that I've read. The book takes the layperson further into baking techniques. The idea of autolyse intrigues me. I plan to try that method right away.

Again, THANK YOU for mentioning that book.

-Terry :) :) :) :) :) :)

[ June 13, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #14 of 24
Hello Koko,

I've been lurking at that book for several weeks now and I don't think I'm going to resist much longer. It appears to be a very good purchase. View it right here, on your left, click on either
  • Table of Contents
  • Read an excerpt
  • Editorial Reviews

Hi thebighat,

Have you ever made bread using a little bit of dough from your previous batch? BTW, it's called a "Chef"...

In the affirmative, can you tell me how you conserve your chef? In the fridge :confused:

[ June 13, 2001: Message edited by: Kimmie ]
K

«Money talks. Chocolate sings. Beautifully.»
«Just Give Me Chocolate and Nobody Gets Hurt.»
«Coffee, Chocolate, Men ... Some things are just better rich.»
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K

«Money talks. Chocolate sings. Beautifully.»
«Just Give Me Chocolate and Nobody Gets Hurt.»
«Coffee, Chocolate, Men ... Some things are just better rich.»
Reply
post #15 of 24
I prefer to call that the old dough method, as I think a chef is something different that is carried for a longer period. I use it all the time. I make a complete dough, with salt and everything and then let it rise for 3 hours and refrigerate it. Next day I incorporate it into a dough, which I take all the way to shaping. Then I refrigerate that and bake it on the third day. Gas bubbling out of the skin gives you those teeny little blisters on the crust and you get a gorgeous foxy red on the crust. I think the use of a chef is involved more with what the French loosely refer as "levain", which is basically sourdough. I have what I call a refrigerated culture, which I feed whenever I am going to use it. From that I make a sponge, and from the sponge, a dough. That takes 4 days for a loaf of bread. But I can cut a day out of it like I did today because the sponge was really alive and tripled in 6 hours. so I made the dough, let it rise for 3 hours, shaped it and left the night crew instructions to put it away. Tomorrow I'll proof and bake.
Another good book is The Village Baker, by Joe Ortiz. He talks a lot about sourdoughs, levains, poolish and biga. You won't be sorry for buying Artisan Breads. I use it all the time.
It's not Dairy Queen.
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post #16 of 24
Thread Starter 
BigHat, Whatta' god to us lay heathens!!!!!!!!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D


Kimmie:
Thx for the Amazon review. Also check GOOGLE.COM for reviews. ;)

[ June 14, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply
post #17 of 24
Koko,
Do you ever allow your dough to rise in the fridge? I have a pizza dough recipe that rises for at leats 20 hours and the flavor is wonderful. I wonder if the effect would work for a bread dough.
post #18 of 24
Thread Starter 
Yes, Svad, I do allow the dough to rise in the fridge. I plan to follow BigHat's suggestion of letting the dough age in the fridge after final shaping.

Lots of room for experimentation in this field of breadmaking.

[ June 14, 2001: Message edited by: kokopuffs ]

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #19 of 24
Thanks for the info, Koko and thebighat.

That's very helpful.

:rolleyes:
K

«Money talks. Chocolate sings. Beautifully.»
«Just Give Me Chocolate and Nobody Gets Hurt.»
«Coffee, Chocolate, Men ... Some things are just better rich.»
Reply
K

«Money talks. Chocolate sings. Beautifully.»
«Just Give Me Chocolate and Nobody Gets Hurt.»
«Coffee, Chocolate, Men ... Some things are just better rich.»
Reply
post #20 of 24
Thread Starter 
You're quite welcome, Kimmie. :)

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
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post #21 of 24
Well, thank you. That's what they call me at work, The Bread God. I just like making bread, and after a recent abortive skirmish with the Atkins Diet, I may eat some someday.
It's not Dairy Queen.
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It's not Dairy Queen.
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post #22 of 24
Are you telling us that you are not even eating your own bread, thebighat?

:confused:
I cook'n bake with passion...
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I cook'n bake with passion...
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post #23 of 24
Pretty much, yeah. I just had a thin slice of something I'm not supposed to bring home. I can't wait to get to work in the morning. All week we've been smelling something electrical burning, and thought maybe Mango the laundry guy was overloading the big dryers right under the kitchen with the pool towels. Turns out the giant electrical cables coming into the building right there were on fire. So they shut the power off at about 4 today. We have a wedding tomorrow, $155 a plate, and all the food except the sushi is in the walkins and reachins. The chef put 500 lbs of dry ice in the walkins, but my reefers are full of rolls, bialys, danish, croissant dough, fresh muffin batter, basically an entire day's production will go down the drain if the temp goes too high for too long. I can remake the rolls no problem, if I have to, and I didn't really get started on the chocolate mousse that's going in the the chocolate cups which are no doubt getting softer by the moment. The club members will however expect things to be normal. I won't be able to produce danish and croissants till sunday. This should be interesting.
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It's not Dairy Queen.
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post #24 of 24
So sorry, thebighat. Bummer hey!

Hope not too much food gets spoiled and that the wedding reception goes well!

:eek:
K

«Money talks. Chocolate sings. Beautifully.»
«Just Give Me Chocolate and Nobody Gets Hurt.»
«Coffee, Chocolate, Men ... Some things are just better rich.»
Reply
K

«Money talks. Chocolate sings. Beautifully.»
«Just Give Me Chocolate and Nobody Gets Hurt.»
«Coffee, Chocolate, Men ... Some things are just better rich.»
Reply
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