Heirloom Tomatoes

Gary Ibsen is the world's second sharpest marketing guy. Among other things he introduced Marianna's Peace, with what is probably a made up story, and successfully sold seeds for six bucks a throw. He also introduced the so-called Julia Child, which was merely an unnamed pink tomato somebody had sent him that he decided would be a good testiment to the queen of cookery.

Anyone else would have bred a special tomato for that purpose!

If you're thinking Gary isn't one of my favorite people, you're not far wrong.

That aside, can you narrow things down a bit in terms of your taste preferences. There are something like 6,000 named open pollinated tomatoes, in 8 colors, at least a half dozen general shapes and sizes, and an incredible diversity of flavors.

New Jersey actually is a great tomato state which, if I remember correctly, one time lead the country in tomato production. Rutgers, a great heirloom, is just one of many varieties developed there.

For some direct inputs see if you can track down the Garden State Heirloom Seed Society. Becoming a member would be one of the best moves you can make.

I would also check out specialty heirloom seed companies, such as Marianne Jone's mariseed. Marianne specializes in tomatoes, and is a great resource for both seeds and plants.

SSE (Seed Savers Exchange) offers quite a few tomatoes in its public catalog. And if you join that organization you get the yearbook, which has several thousand heirloom tomatoes being offered by other members.

some common varieties we like... (we've been growing them for 9 years, in similar climate to you).

orange banana (for flavor) they are a little picky and they split sometimes, but they taste great

Black krim - nice "black" beefsteak type, tasty, decent yield

green zebra are popular, yield well, nice visuals, decent taste

for little tomatoes...
riesentraube gelf
black cherry
white currant have a unique flavor profile if you want a small tomato
green grape also have an interesting taste

I like to have a white one too for color, but I can't remember which variety was best for taste.

then there's the classic Brandywine if you want a plain ole beefsteak type

and others for sundried or sauce

I have since lost the seed, but we grew one called Watermelon Beefsteak that we enjoyed for huge tomatoes.

joining SSE is a nice idea, we got some good varieties from a private collector who had an unbelievable collection. We've also got them from Baker Creek in the past Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds - 1000 Heirloom Garden Seeds in our Heritage Seed Catalog, Historic Gardening Shows and Plant Festivals, they give decent quantity I haven't tried Marianne Jones, sounds like a great source.

Have fun!

Just to keep the record straight, the justifyably popular Green Zebra is not an heirloom. It was bred by Tom Wagner, one of several of his modern OP tomatoes that are erroneously grouped with heirlooms.

Which raises an issue little addresed by folks who have jumped on the heirlooms bandwagon: Not all open pollinated varieties are heirlooms. But that doesn't mean there aren't some great modern OPs. The reasons for breeding modern OPs are not the same as the reasons for breeding hybrids.

Black Krim is also popular, thanks, in part, to Martha Stewart touting it. Personally, I'm not as enthused as other people. Indeed, I'm on record as calling it the most over-rated tomato in history. Be that as it may, there are better blacks than that one. Paul Robeson, for instance. Southern Nights, also from the Crimea, is the best black I've ever tasted. But there are two problems with it for the home grower. It's indeterminate. And seed is not readily available.

I'd have to agree about Riesentraube. One of the few cherry tomatoes I can eat; most of them are too sweet for my taste. If I want a candy bar I'll munch on a Snickers. But the Riesentraube has a complex flavor that tastes like a tomato. Black Cherry also is a good choice.

I wish you could remember which white you found tasty. In my experience, and that of most folks I know, the whites do bring that color shift to the table. But not much in flavor. William Woys Weaver has been working on a major exploration of white tomatoes, and keeps threatening to write an article about them. But he has so many draws on his time it keeps sitting on the back burner. :(

If I were forced to choose just one tomato to grow it would be Cherokee Purple hands down. It is, of course, as ugly as homemade sin. But the flavor more than makes up for its lack of physical charm. And it will, apparently, grow anywhere in North America that tomatoes can be grown.

Fortunately, I don't have to make that choice.

didn't know Martha Stewart was touting the Black Krim. I first heard about it from a collector in France, krim noir. Some other blacks we grew had great taste, but were more prone to splitting than the krim. I will put Southern Nights on the radar if we can get seeds, or Paul Robeson. I'm excited to try to find your other suggestions as we love the blacks and one even better would be great.

Yes we like Cherokee Purple too and still grow that every year.

I don't remember the name, but we tried one this year with ananas in the title, it was kind of interesting.

On the zebra, I have also seen that greenhouse/hydroponic versions are being adapted.

We'll try to figure out which white, some are awfully bland and one was actually pretty good, now not that it would take down another variety/color in a cage match or anything, but very tasty for a white. This year and last year our labelling got screwed up, last year someone who helped us in the garden pulled out all the labels for some reason, and this year my husband's labels faded to oblivion, so we had issues knowing what was what in some varieties.:crazy:

KYH any other knockouts for taste you would recommend? We have honed down what we grow to a smaller number, after years of nonsense of having way too many varieties. But each year we try a few new varieties, and I'd love to get your expert opinion on a few nice ones we might not know about. We like the big flavored ones, not into the so called "mild" or "low acid" ones which we think = bland.

>after years of nonsense of having way too many varieties<

Are you kidding? When it got to the point where I would have had to bid on Rhode Island to have enough room to grow all my varieties I knew it was time to start developing some focus.

When I tightened my viewpoint it was to grow only Kentucky varieites. Then, when I co-founded the Appalachian Heirloom Seed Conservancy, I broadened back out, slightly, to include any family heirloom from the southern hills.

The problem is, I don't know which of those will be happy where you are. Sometimes (often) it doesn't matter, and a variety adapts to its new surroundings in only a season or two. Other times it never does. Typical is Brandywine, and it's reluctance to grow well in the deep south.

The French variety, btw, is Noir De Crimee, which should translate as Black Krim. But, in fact, they are two different tomatoes. And, while I hate to say it, the French one is the better of the two.

I'm like you. I want a tomato with a rich, complex flavor and a little tartness. By and large I prefer pinks for that reason, as they tend in that direction, just as yellows tend towards the sweet side. But there are exceptions to every rule and I've had some fairly acidic tasting yellows, and one pink that could have been made of sugar. Ugh!

Let me go through my "library" (did you know that that word applies to more than just book collections? I know a place, for instance, that has what is supposedly "the world's largest library of old mill stones." But I digress) and see if I still have seed for Brandt's Old German Pink. That's a variety that was brought here in 1931 from Germany, by a Mr. Brandt. My contact got it from his son, who doesn't garden, and shared it with me. Until I started promoting it, several years back, Vernon and I were the only people growing it.

Vernon is from the Chicago area, and I imagine if it grows well there it will do ok for you. And it's a really great tomato. If I can find seed for it I'll send you some.

:bounce::bounce::bounce:

you are far too awesome! wasn't fishing for seeds just recommendations, so either way THANKS!

It's great to have someone's recommendation, then you don't have to grow out 50 new varieties to find the few you like.

ROFLMBO, I know exactly what you mean!

BTW we're in the warmer part of zone 5 officially, really a zone 6 now thanks to the carbon. Hubby is good at getting things to a good start with a little heat in his makeshift greenhouse, so I would think we've got a good shot at growing what grows well in KY.

Didn't think you were fishing for seeds. But let me tell you AHSC's philosophy: The best way to preserve a variety is to assure that somebody, somewhere, is growing it.

So, if I have the seeds, and you can use them, I'm happy to send them.

This is also why AHSC is the only seed-saving group I know of that automatically sends seeds as part of the membership package. And why our Living Seed Bank is such an important project. They are steps that help assure that varieties get grown on a regular basis.

such valuable work KYH! And I love that you've focused on your region.

Hi all :)

I wish I had room for a large garden at my house, but I don't. Last year I planted two varieties in pots with a little less than stellar results. This year I'm going to try planting the tomato plants in with the landscaping...we'll see if I get better results.

I'm going to buy the plants this year instead of starting them from seeds. The place I'm getting them from has a decent selection too. You can see the selection here.

I was thinking about getting three varieties. In the running are...

green zebra, garden peach, pruden's purple, thessaloniki, red rose



All of the above selection are on recommendation from the owner of the store. I really love tomatoes...but I'm not familiar enough with them to know what's good.

Any ideas? or any favorites that you may have?

love to hear it>>>


dan

>but I'm not familiar enough with them to know what's good. <

Dan,

"Good" is not an objective thing, with a set of measurable criteria. Instead it's based on your preference in taste, size, color, etc. If you're not familiar with the various tomatoes, ask the supplier to describe them in terms of flavor characteristics---sweet, acidic, complex, etc. That way you'll come closer to what you think is a good tomato.

I have no personal experience with either the Thessaloniki or Red Rose, so can make no comment on them---except to say that I'm always suspect of descriptions that use terms like "perfect tomato" and "best tasting" etc. Taste preferences are a personal thing, and vary greatly. And one of those two get raves merely for for fitting into the "smooth, red, round" syndrome of supermarket 'maters.

As to the others:

Green Zebra is a modern open pollinated variety, bred by Tom Wagner. It's one of the "green when ripe" types, and is very popular. Personally I don't care for it all that much. They make interesting additions to mixed tomato salads. And can be conversation starters if you used them as the base of a stuffed-tomato dish---so much so that one source erroneously groups them with the stuffers.

Garden Peach is named for both it's color and the light fuzz covering it. In short, it looks like a peach. It's a sweet tasting tomato. Too sweet for my taste, but Friend Wife loves them. But, then again, she thinks there's nothing better than to snack on cherry tomatoes as they come off the vine.

Pruden's Purple is a very popular pink tomato, with complex flavor. Of those on your list, this would be my first choice. But, remember, I prefer a complex, somewhat tart tomato, and you might not.

>Last year I planted two varieties in pots with a little less than stellar results. This year I'm going to try planting the tomato plants in with the landscaping...we'll see if I get better results.<

I grow tomatoes in 5-gallon buckets all the time, Dan, as well as in larger (i.e., 20 gallon) tubs. They grow just as well as those growing free in the garden.

What you have to be aware of, whether tomatoes or anything else, is that container gardening has it's own rules. Primarily this means monitoring moisture and nutrient levels more carefully. Containers tend to dry out faster than the ground surrounding them. Which means more frequent watering. Which means you are leaching nutrients out. Which, in turn, means fertilizing more frequently.

Don't know what your preferences are in terms of supporting the plants. But with containers, wire towers definately make more sense than poles.

Personally, I don't think tomatoes make good landscaping plants. For that I prefer things like okra---whose plants are self-supporting and whose flowers are gorgeous. Eggplant and peppers also are a better fit.

Tomato plants want to sprawl (their natural inclination is to creep all over the ground). And the flowers aren't particularly showy.

Were it me, I'd try containers again, paying attention to each plants' needs.

Thanks KYH!

After reading your post I think I'll take another look at the plants and pick Garden Peach, Pruden's Purple and two others that will give me a wide range of flavors. This way I may get a better idea of where I'd like to head.

The spot where I was thinking of planting them is a bit off the beaten path. But I'll have to see how exactly the sun is over there. But I'll certainly rethink the pot issue as well, keeping a closer eye on it's needs.

Thanks,
dan

I'm wondering if this is a Pineapple tomato. In many Indo-European languages, the word for pineapple is "ananas".

Home Depot has some heirloom tomato plants. Not sure how avid of a seed grower you are, or how fast you want the tomatoes. I picked a yellow pear shaped heirloom tomato plant, about 10 inches high, yesterday.

I love the flavor and texture of Mr. Stripeys. That brain coral interior makes for a wonderful sandwich tomato that puts the ol beefsteak to shame.

If you have a Mr. Stripey that you like, Gunnar, it really behooves you to save the seed. Here's why:

There actually were two different tomatoes introduced at about the same time with the name Mr. Stripey. As if that wasn't bad enough, there were two others brought out, called something like tangella that not only look similar, but which are often sold as Mr. Stripey.

So, in effect, there are four Mr. Stripey tomatoes out there. Not only is this confusing, if you happen to like one of them, there's no guarantee that the plants or seeds you buy by that name next year will be the same tomato.

hmmm, that may explain a quandry i had from one farmers market to another. I have noticed that that the brain coral like interior i really like is more pronounced in some of them then in others. but they all have that stripey mottled orangey yellow flesh.

That's probably the reason, Gunner. BTW, when first introduced, one of the Mr Stripey's was a beefsteak type tomato, while the other was a more standard (i.e., 12ish ounces) size.

BTW, the other varieties often confused with Mr Stripey are Tigerello. It was early, when I wrote the other, and hadn't had my coffee yet. :look:

Hi all,

Ok...the plants are in. I ended up getting a pretty good variety because I bought plants for home and also for work :)

My question is...Should i pinch off some of the early flowers that I have on the plants? I would rather have a strong plant that produces well during the year instead of having a few early tomatoes. But if this makes no difference to the plants health I'll just leave them.

thanks,
dan

personally I had no luck with heirloom seeds that I got from totallytomatoes. I spent a nice amount on all sorts of seeds and not one tomato did I get so can't help you, sorry, but good luck.

My supermarket often times has heirloom tomatoes in the produce section. I've asked the worker there how good they are as they're expensive and he has always said, let me slice one for you and you can see. Well then I buy one, and take it home and riddle it of it's seeds, put in ground and pray but tomato gawds haven't been kind to me:confused:

would probably help to sprout your seeds inside before planting them in the ground. wash your seeds in some water, get a small plastic container, lay a wet paper towel in the bottom and lay your seeds on top cover loosely with lid. the lids just so the towel doesn't dry out in a couple of hours. keep moist, not flooded and you should see some sprouts soon. move to small pots to encourage more growth then outside.

Lover of Pies: You're not alone in that. Every since Shumway's bought out Totally Tomatoes their quality has gone downhill, and there have been nothing but complaints about their seed quality and service. I don't know any serious heirlooms growers who will have anything to do with them---or any of the Shumway's group. Another example of a formerly great seed house now fallen on the Shumway's hard times is Vermont Bean Seed.

FWIW, the general approach to growing your own tomatoes is to set the seed indoors 6-8 weeks before last frost. When collecting seed directly, from ripe tomatoes, it's really best to ferment the seed, which removes the anti-germination compunds in the gel coat, and destroys most seed-borne pathogens. Plus you eliminate any non-viable seed.

If you want the names of some reliable heirlooms seed suppliers let me know and I'll post them.

I'm forever making tomato sandwiches and then tossing remnants from cutting board into the dirt. MTNA

These last two posts to me are invaluable. Thank you.
Yes names of reputable tomato heirloomers would be very helpful if even for next year. I can buy and save.

Maybe I'm just tired, but I have no idea what MTNA stands for. Please explain.

I don't have my files handy, so can't supply URLs. But you can google these folks easy enough.

For tomatoes specifically, I would consider:

Tomatoes, Etc. This is my friend Roger Postley's company. Roger grows as many as 100 varieties of heirlooms annually. No website, but you can reach him at RPostley@aol.com, and he'll send you his seed list.

Mariseeds. Marianne Jone's company. She's been growing heirloom tomatoes for many years and selling both seed and plants. She has one of the largest seed selections in the industry.

Tomato Grower's Supply Co. One of the most reputable and service-oriented seed houses in the country. They also handle a small number of peppers and other veggies, but tomatoes are their mainstay.

For general seeds, try any of the following:

Seed Savers Exchange. SSE is the largest seed preservation organization in the world. You can join, and get the annual yearbook which lists thousands of varieties grown by memember. Or just get the SSE public catalog, which is like any other seed company except all the seeds come from the SSE collection.

Southern Exposure Seed Exchange. SESE had had some service problems in the past. But since Ira Wallace took over as manager they seem to have been resolved.

Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds. I'm including Baker Creek without a recommendation pro or con. Used to be one of the finest heirloom seed houses anywhere. But there's been a growing number of growers reporting dissatisfaction on various levels.

Victory Seeds. A great West Coast company. And speaking of tomatoes, the owner has been on a long term program to find and grow all the original Livingston varieties. Will the real Golden Queen please stand up. :D

There are numerous others. But if you get the catalogs from this handful you'll be well on your way to covering the heirlooms field....until you start collecting family heirlooms in the field; and then there's no hope for you.

much to no avail.... Sorry was too tired to finish typing. I'll read the rest from you. now

I just printed this out so I don't have to try to remember later where this wealth of information is. Thank you. Wasn't aware of the many varieties and places to get them that there are.
Again sorry for the frustration. I can't tell you how long it took me to figure out what MTNA meant, honestly I pondered way too long on that one.
Footnote, came home last night, checked my plants, guess who has two giant gopher holes in the dirt now. Any tried and true ways to rid myself of them or am I stuck? They've eaten all the roots off my roses from years past and now, they may be headed for doing the same thing with my "maters". Should I take them out of the dirt/planter and put them in pots before it's too late? Or, is there a poisin to the varments that won't hurt the vegetation or me:eek:

If you've got gophers I'm assuming your out West somewhere? That's where they tend to be a big problem.

There are only two solutions to serious gopher problems. You can build raised beds, first lining the undersides with hardware cloth. This is just as expensive and a PITA as it sounds. But it deters the critters for a few years, anyway. Eventually the hardware cloth rusts through, however, and you have to rebuild the beds.

Alternatively, go with container gardening. This is feasible if you only have a few plants. Tomatoes and peppers can be grown in containers as small as five-gallon pails (which you can get for free, btw). Most gardeners opt for something larger though. Those 18-gallon Rubbermaid containers are a common choice, for instance.

I'm lucky in that several local farmers drop their cattle-feed supplement tubs off at the recycling center. These make wonderful planters---about 20 gallon capacity. And, most of all, they're free.

One tip: If you opt for containers, drill you drain holes an inch or two up the sidewalls, rather than on the bottom. Otherwise they are likely to clog up.

Lots of help there too. The holes placed on side instead of the bottom. Good idea. I have
10 in pots the rest in ground