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Dough conditioners

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 
Does anyone know of a natural dough conditioner? At culinary school (way back when) we used something called S500. I sometimes have to make silver dollar rolls from scratch, and I make focaccia from scratch every day, but they seem to go stale very quickly. Maybe someone has a better formula than what I have. I am using a very simple white dough, and a whole wheat dough. Any ideas?:smoking:
post #2 of 12
good morning ,
have you tried Puratos?
they have a all naturial starter conditioner most likely one of the best ,we made croissats about 16 books at 8 Kilo each a week and used some of there product .could not tell it was in there by taste as long as you did not over use it ,also they have a s-kimo conditioner for stailing ''frezer proof conditioner exelent product .
check them out ,European imports out of chicago has it also there is a location in Glendale AZ. and Lakc City GA that would be my choices .
TOMMY
post #3 of 12
ecolee, what % hydration are those doughs?

my foccach is 95%:bounce:. Culinary school probably taught you somewhere around 60%.:rolleyes:

So my facetious answer to your question is there is a natural additive, it's called water.:lol:


There are tons of additives on the market that are sold to retard staling. (or it's main perceivable effect which is the firming of the texture).

here's a puratos link with many of them, including your s500.

- Bread Improvers


however... my school of thought is to keep to a "clean formula" and solve problems with ingredient ratio and procedure.

so even though I was an "enabler" and gave you a link to all the additives you'll need, I also read between the lines that you might be interested in trying to work for a better formula.

What are your needs and goals, do you just need stuff to be baked in the morning and be in good shape for dinner service? Do you need bread that's good for 2-ish days... Or are you wanting to sell 5-day old bread and have it be squishy soft... If it's not the last option, I think you can do it with formula. At least for focaccia and dinner rolls and most breads, not croissants like tommy mentioned.:) Are you a pastry chef in a restaurant and just need to bake a little bread for dinner service, or are you in a bakery, etc...

I've delved into some nasty technical books on bread staling... amylopectin has a major role, and the starches sort of go past gelatinization and go through a bit of a re-crystallization or retrogradation... amylolytic enzymes are known to help with the most perceived issue with staling, so you'll see "enzymes" in anti-staling products. If you want to go as pure as possible, plain alpha-amylase is one route, or on the puratos menu, the one "SoftRFresh" has only "Mono-diglycerides, wheat flour, enzymes" might be the closest to what you're after.

Or you can try to bake to minimize this:chef:. Learning to handle nice wet sticky doughs of higher hydration, and baking only until the point of gelatinization and not past, can really help. (I started using internal temperature, and the probe was telling me to take it out of the oven earlier than I would have without it. The result is a softer, more stable bread that holds "fresh" longer).

In a scientific blind study, even 2% increase in water content in the final loaf was perceived as less stale.

Happy baking whichever route you go.:D
post #4 of 12
Thread Starter 

dough conditioner

Ok, stir it up! What temp. are you baking to? I tried a little extra water and a little extra fat in my whole wheat rolls today. I will see tomorrow if there was any difference. The focaccia recipe I am using is the one in Gisslens book, the Professional Pastry Chef. I am looking for rolls that will last at least two days. And yes I need squishy soft. I work in a private country club in a Podunk town (Wichita Falls) in Texas. Our members are mostly over 50 and they want soft, squishy yet served warm dinner rolls. The mission statement (implied, not written) for this establishment is ... Keep it cheap. I seriously doubt that the Exec. Chef will let me buy any commercial conditioners. I also don't have storage for a 50 # bag of something thay may take me 6 months or longer to use up. We are using frozen roll dough for every day service, and focaccia for our "fine dining" venue. If I use a lot of veggies or orther moist toppings for the focaccia, I can sometimes serve it on the lunch buffet the next day. Otherwise, it gets made into croutons. Thanks for the reply. E.:smoking:
post #5 of 12
Hello ,
I hear you , on the 50 lb er ,at a useage of 1-2 % by total vol .what kinda flour are you using ? and funny enough is it well water or city water?.when you say fat do you mean butter , try shortning , or milk powder . Just brain storming ,
try high heat fan on and dampner closed to get the oven spring and decrese the the heat just a bit . good luck ..
I remember my boss wanted giant muffins like the ones in the filling stations never happened till she paid for some additaves to help .
good luck
Tommy
post #6 of 12
ecolee... if cheap is the goal, they'll love serving extra water LOL!:chef:

190 F internal temp with a probe is probably a good starting place for your purposes. The gelatinization will continue out of the oven. Insert probe after they've baked enough to hold the probe, toward the end of the firing. I now use the type of probe, I don't know the proper name for it, but the one that is attached to a string and the readout is outside the oven, the probe is left in, and it will alert when it's reached the set temperature.

Also for the 2nd day, what about retarding overnight raw rolls in the fridge, baking them off as needed.

For your soft rolls, have you tried buttermilk? Some people also say soy lecithin reduces staling (never tried it), maybe even a little honey. potatoes also a possibility, though I find that sometimes tricky, too variable, and less failsafe. For those soft squishy buns that stay like that for a long time, additives are probably the main way to achieve that, but you can probably get a bit better performance than what you're getting otherwise. Do you let your ingredients autolyze a little before kneading?

I used to work with someone who was really into those soft squishy buns, and she dipped each bun in melted butter before putting it in the pan. Getting them more flush and close to each other will minimize the effect of the crust drawing moisture out of the crumb too. Like tear-apart rolls.

BTW never refrigerate the baked bread, it speeds staling. The techy book I read on staling says to refresh stale bread, warm it in a moist environment/high humidity at 80-95 degrees F, that was lower than I would have thought to do.

For your foccacia, if you're up for an experiment, try this quick easy ciabatta that's 95% hydration. To me that formula is a little bland on taste, with fast fermentation etc., (I do it with a natural yeast starter, white flour with small portion of semolina/durham flour, slower fermentation) but it will show you what a sopping wet bread can do, could be a good focaccia base 4U.

Jason's Quick Coccodrillo Ciabatta Bread | The Fresh Loaf


PS good brainstorming from tommy!:chef:
post #7 of 12
Thread Starter 
thanks for all the ideas. I tried using more water in the focaccia and it is working out well. I also tried your ciabatta recipe. It was tasty but I just didn't get the large holes in the crumb. I think I was rushing it a little too much. Will try again when I have more time. The roll formula I have calls for milk powder and water and margarine. We don't keep margarine or shortening, so I am using butter and whole milk. Tried increasing the butter and they were a little softer the next day.
post #8 of 12
another tiny tip I thought of with the soft rolls you're after, is to put a clean tea towel on them when they're cooling. That will re-direct the steam into the top crust, so with the crust more moist, it won't draw as much moisture out of the crumb. Since you're after a soft bun for your crowd.

I thought of you yesterday as I baked a 100% durham/semolina loaf (at home) that was so soft and really stayed that way. It's day 2, still very soft, I don't know if any will be left to see how soft it'll be on day 3. The formula was 60% water, but then another 10% EVOO, and included 3% sugar, the sugar also contributed to the softness. Is your bun recipe close to those proportions of fat/liquid/sugar? you could see if that helps too?
post #9 of 12
OK here we go .
I still wonder what brand and type of flour you have ? to use .how soft are these supose to be . try to use the towel route .or when the procuct is right out of the oven put it on a clean sheet pan with some spray then bag it and right into the freezer . I can't think of any other way .unless you can get a hold of a ''sample'' of the US500 and it should last for some time .If the local guy cant get a sample call HQ and tell em your chef wants it .
that should do the trick . i did that with a bag of pannatonne the italian bread. once the boss tasted it and saw how it flew off the rack she did not mind the extra cost
how many memders belong to the club ? private = non profit .if that is the case some one is getting a bump for the low food cost .
try getting a free sample .
T
post #10 of 12

Goodmornig! I found this link. Hope its useful

http://www.tammysrecipes.com/node/2814

post #11 of 12
I was just reading on another site that Potato Flour extends the shelf life.
post #12 of 12
Potato flour is used by professional bakers to improve breads and pastries by making them more moist and retarding staling. Potato flour is hygroscopic, that is, it attracts moisture rather than drying out and it keeps your breads moist for longer.
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