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Irish Food? - Page 3

post #61 of 68
2/13/12 at 2:06am


Thanks, Rmullins, for that.  I was thinking actually, how Ireland was forced onto a single-crop agriculture (hence famine when that one crop, not even native to the land, the potato, failed) and how could any actual native cuisine survive?  Though i presume that there were, as there always are, people who sided with the invaders and got advantages and had the money to buy food that most people couldn't get, but then it would have been strongly influenced by british cuisine, i guess. 

 

You forget, among the invaders, the Vikings, who used Ireland as a supermarket and playground - for slaves, slaughter, rape and silver.   When things got bad back home, they would go a-viking, though not only to ireland.  Britain had managed to keep out much of the Viking invasions for a time, had a viking king for a while, but then were definitively invaded by the Normans, who were --- Vikings who had taken over Normandy and then came in to England speaking french leaving the language completely transformed (hence we say pig and pork, cow and beef, house and mansion - guess what the aristocrats spoke and what the peasants spoke!!

 

Not meaning any slur on modern-day members of any culture.  Look what the ancient Romans did!  Look at Alexander the great, Napoleon, and all these so-called heroes, who basically were bullies and warlords, under the guise of "civilization".  So can we all be, alas.  I can talk about history, but not current events on this forum so i will say no more. 

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post #62 of 68
2/13/12 at 6:54am
but ireland did indeed have a 'cuisine!' Some of it was rough, and ready but if you go back far enough in all cultures you will find that.

Years ago i researched irish food extensively for my thesis, and found that there were detailed descriptions of irish food recorded by travellers to these shores. There are descriptions from the 15th century of 'white meat' goods this was the name given to dairy by the irish. Cheese and a sort of clotted cream is mentioned. Another recounts the impressive array breads and cakes available in the 1600s. And yet another talks of the many taverns and food establishments and the booming trade they were doing in irish towns up until the famine. I have the sources on a disk somewhere i will try find it.

With the famine we lost much of our food culture, recipes and traditions. And what we have left is often a result of the famine soda bread being a prime example of this. But the cheesemakers, smokers,butchers,bakers, publicans were there and they were producing irish food, yes influenced by former invaders and colonisation but what culture hasnt been?

Dont forget too ireland was involved in slave trading especially along the british coast. saint patrick was welsh, snatched by irish slavers and brought to ireland
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post #63 of 68
2/13/12 at 8:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by siduri View Post



Thanks, Rmullins, for that.  I was thinking actually, how Ireland was forced onto a single-crop agriculture (hence famine when that one crop, not even native to the land, the potato, failed) and how could any actual native cuisine survive?  Though i presume that there were, as there always are, people who sided with the invaders and got advantages and had the money to buy food that most people couldn't get, but then it would have been strongly influenced by british cuisine, i guess. 

You forget, among the invaders, the Vikings, who used Ireland as a supermarket and playground - for slaves, slaughter, rape and silver.   When things got bad back home, they would go a-viking, though not only to ireland.  Britain had managed to keep out much of the Viking invasions for a time, had a viking king for a while, but then were definitively invaded by the Normans, who were --- Vikings who had taken over Normandy and then came in to England speaking french leaving the language completely transformed (hence we say pig and pork, cow and beef, house and mansion - guess what the aristocrats spoke and what the peasants spoke!!

Not meaning any slur on modern-day members of any culture.  Look what the ancient Romans did!  Look at Alexander the great, Napoleon, and all these so-called heroes, who basically were bullies and warlords, under the guise of "civilization".  So can we all be, alas.  I can talk about history, but not current events on this forum so i will say no more. 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmullins View Post

At the risk of stirring up trouble (something I seem to have no problems doing here) being full Irish I can tell you there is no real Irish-centric cuisine.  Now, If you want to count the fact that the 'gaels' pretty much owned all of spain, France, etc, etc, then I guess we do have something of a culinary history.  Most of what you see as 'Irish' cuisine today is really adaptations of what you see in the United States.  

Of course there are the regulars like Boxty, Colcannon, champ, etc, etc, however most of historic Irish cuisine was nasty, nasty stuff.  In my own research I turned up the fact that most of Irish cuisine was whatever could be hauled out of the sea and boiled to hell.  Most vegetables in Ireland were introduced there including the potato.  In addition birds were sometimes caught and they were slathered with clay and then baked whole in a fire, guts, feathers and all.  On the upside, once the bird was done, all you had to do was crack the 'clay pot' and the feathers came off with the clay.  Nicely done!

500 years of British assault and tyranny really ripped the heart and soul out of the Irish culture.  There was a very rich and vibrant beginnings of culture through their music and language, and were beginning to develop more organization as such when the Irish were subjected to slavery and abuse from other cultures, IE. beginning with the spanish invasions and then of course British colonization which I will avoid for political reasons.

Once Great Britain had cut-down all Irelands trees, (thank you Cromwell the Butcher) burned all of Irelands beautiful harps and burned all of the music for harps, and cut the hands off all known harpists in the land they had effectively begun to change and destroy her culture forever.  To this day none of Irelands original musical subculture has been re-gained.

All that being said, once you destroy a people-groups culture nothing much else can really emerge.  The Irish were scatterd to the four-corners of the globe, and generally followed the Brits as they tried to colonize (read subjegate) other cultures.  As slaves they populated the Barbados and other sugar-rich colonies, (hence why you still see black people with stark red hair and freckles there at times) Africa, and India.  Where-ever the British tended to go, not long after they would bring the Irish to be the 'sub-culture' in the area filling the roles such as nurses, butchers, housemaids, bakers, and other support functions.

my two cents worth.

Well said!
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post #64 of 68
2/13/12 at 9:03am
So this takes us back to the original question? Is there no hope of recovering Irelands gastronomic heritage? Are we now relegated to inventing Irish cuisine for the current era?
If so what classifies as "Irish cuisine"? Who decides that? If I serve lamb chops with a Guinness cream sauce is that irish? Do we create dishes in the "spirit" of Ireland? Using only grass fed/finished cow milk for cream and cheeses? Seafood dishes using Ingredients that are common to Irish waters? My goal is to in the not to distant future open a truly authentic "irish" food establishment. But it's been very difficult finding historical Irish fare to prepare. There are a handful of items mentioned like boxty and soda bread, and champ etc. But its the same handful of recipes you get from anyone you ask. I feel like my best bet is to head back to Ireland and go to the Gaeltacht regions and simply work in the bakeries, butcher shops and cheese makers there to learn how to make their goods and bring that back and produce those items here. Very interesting discussion going on here. One I am very interested in! Keep the discussion going smile.gif
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post #65 of 68
2/15/12 at 5:55am

@Cakeface:  It would be awesome to see whatever research you turned up.  The fact you had a thesis on the topic makes my own research seem quite paltry. ;)  I would love to try to bring some of that cuisine into my home and have tried to inculcate a kind of Irish Heritage in my home with my children.

 

On a slightly other note, it is true that even the Irish went 'a-slavin' and those were such brutal times I think we try to forget them.  And while every culture or land has it's own turn at throwing rocks at the other cultures of the world, I still mourn the historic authenticity of a true Irish Heritage and that one of the brightest days of Irish History was the day JFK was elected to the presidency.  That says something about the tyranny imposed upon them for well over 500 years.

 

Africa still has her music, India still has her trees, but Ireland....poor Roisin Dubh.  Tiocfaidh ar La! Sinn fein. crying.gif

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post #66 of 68
2/15/12 at 7:10am

I have removed my post content - I should just be content to keep biting my tongue about the direction this thread seems to have taken.

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post #67 of 68
2/15/12 at 10:12am

Mmmmm .... soda bread! We would eat it for breakfast and dessert on St. Patty's day (and the next day) as kids. I will have to dig up my (grandmas) recipe and postthumb.gif

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post #68 of 68
2/15/12 at 11:07am

My best friend's mother made THE greatest soda bread in Scotland!  Mrs Leneghan's Irish breakfasts were legendary amongst our group during our teenage years.  Just the thing to act as a cure-all on Sundays after a good night out on a Saturday.

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