Shun classic vs. Wusthof Ikon

Have the Ikon

I strongly disagree with some of the claims made in your post. On Wusthof website, they have clearly mentioned that all their knives are made 1.) Using the same X50CrMoV15 material 2.) sharpened at 20 deg angle 3.) and Tempered to 58° Rockwell.  

In other words, the main difference between one series to another (high-end forged knives) are the 1.) thickness of the blade (Le Cordon Bleu collection are 30 % lighter), 2.) Shape & 3.) Material of the handle used.

Where as Shun uses different material. For e.g. the Classic uses VG-10 which is harder than X50CrMoV15 & Elite & Kaji uses SG-2 which is harder than VG-10. Now add the difference of angle to the mix from 15-16 deg of Shun to 20 deg of Wusthof. You don't have to be an expert to draw the conclusion. 
 

Please verify your facts before confidently mis-guiding the forum readers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze 

All of the up-market Wusties use the same steel. Their Ikon and Le Cordon Bleu use a 17 deg blade angle, while the Classic uses a 20. The difference is not that large, and I doubt most people could detect a performance difference -- especially after a couple of uses. I cannot attest to the their respective sharpness out of the factory, but would be surprised if their was much variation between lines.

You sharpen (one edge of the) Shun in the same way you sharpen the Global. The qualities of the steels are very similar and all of their chef's knives use a 15 deg edge angle. And when it comes to edge retention qualities, you'll have to move into some of the more exotic brands to better your Global. Shun is the same. The initial difference in "sharpness" you'll feel when the single angle Shun as opposed to the included angle Global lasts about one onion. After they've chopped down on the board a few times, they're the same.

All of these knives require the same level of maintenance. If you use your chef's for prepping a meal a day, I'd expect it would need daily steeling, a touch-up re-sharpening every 2 to 3 weeks and a more thorough sharpening every 2 to 3 months. FWIW, most professional knife sharpening services can handle Japanese angles without any problem. Several of the most popular lines are in commercial kitchens, representing the bulk of a service's business, are Japanese; MAC and Global, to name two. The story about them not being able to sharpen to 15 deg is no longer true, if it ever was.

The Global "ceramic steel," is not a great way to maintain an edge. Neither, for that matter, is the Global or Minosharp pull through sharpener. They're OK, but barely so. I get the feeling you're looking for a no BS but effective solution to the dull knife problem. That's why people usually look for replacements for high quality knives that aren't that old. It's a hunch, but the Global steel seems to be kicking your butt. Global makes a good knife. Although it's not one of my personal favorites I hate to see you walk away from it in order to re-experience the same problems. Your best bet is to get a really good edge on your Global before making a decision on a new knife.

Unless you can afford to buy a new $125 knife every couple of months, a Chef's Choice electric sharpener is probably the best choice for you. Chef's Choice makes two that are good for Asian knife bevels -- but if you only have one or two knives with the bevel, it seems like overkill. You probably don't want two machines. Maybe you're better off with European knives so you can start and stick to a good maintenance routine. Knives are all about sharp. Appearance, handles, balance, etc., come second. What types of other knives do you frequently use?

You complained about the Global handle in the same sentence as the ceramic steel. I'm not sure if you mean the knife or the steel. Which one? Globals are usually good knives for small hands -- indeed, small handed people are typically the ones most comfortable. AND the handle design IS ergonomic -- although it might not be right for you. The usual complaint with Globals is the narrow spine pressing into the index finger of a pinch grip. Is that what you mean? If it is, the fix is to "relieve" the edges of the spine with a stone, a grinder, or sand paper.

Another common complaint is the handle is unsuitable for anything other than a pinch grip. If your thumb is behind the heel of the blade (baseball grip) the handle is going to make your hand ache. If so, and assuming you don't want to learn to pinch grip, you'll probably be happiest with either a traditional or one of the "Euro" ergo grips. The Global, the "D" handled Shun as well as the traditional Shuns are very much pinch grip for chopping.

BDL

Like you, I'm new to ChefTalk, but I recently had the opportunity to use the Shun Classic 8" knife when a friend and I did some cooking together. She brought her Shun knife.  I couldn't believe how sharp it was.  She cut through winter squash as if it was butter.  She is a professional, and she said it was the best knife she had ever had.  I was really impressed with the feel of it.  I did some looking on line and decided I should try out the Wusthof at about the same price point so went to Williams Sonoma.  I took an instant dislike to the Wusthof.  It felt clunky and heavy in my hand, and the grip was all wrong.  I'm a medium size woman with medium size hands, and the Shun felt so much better to me.  The difference in bevel angle was obvious to me just by looking at it.  It also seems obvious that a thinner blade would cut through things more easily.  I used mine for the first time tonight and loved it.  The clerk at Williams Sonoma told me I should buy the Shun steel and that the knife came with life-time sharpening through the distributor.  Luckily I only live about 12 miles away.  I certainly would never use a Chef knife sharpener.  Good luck with your decision, and I hope this helps.

PS:  I have no deep philosophical pretensions to offer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HitsOfMisses 

I strongly disagree with some of the claims made in your post. On Wusthof website, they have clearly mentioned that all their knives are made 1.) Using the same X50CrMoV15 material 2.) sharpened at 20 deg angle 3.) and Tempered to 58° Rockwell.  

 

In other words, the main difference between one series to another (high-end forged knives) are the 1.) thickness of the blade (Le Cordon Bleu collection are 30 % lighter), 2.) Shape & 3.) Material of the handle used.

 

Where as Shun uses different material. For e.g. the Classic uses VG-10 which is harder than X50CrMoV15 & Elite & Kaji uses SG-2 which is harder than VG-10. Now add the difference of angle to the mix from 15-16 deg of Shun to 20 deg of Wusthof. You don't have to be an expert to draw the conclusion. 
 

Please verify your facts before confidently mis-guiding the forum readers.

My post was written two years ago and things have changed since then.  I'm sure your correction was well intentioned, but there was no reason to direct it to me personally by quoting a very long post in full .  Next time, please check your dates before responding. 

BDL

Are you saying Wusthof, a 200 years old company, changed how they make their products in the last 2 years?

I just quoted what you wrote. Should I apologize if your post was long?  

Wusthof sure as hell didnt, and their Rockwell is not 58 it's 55 to 57. Globals is 56\58 and Shuns is 61.

Now I have been working in a kitchen store for a few months now where we have all of these knives in store. Im not a professional chef but I live with professional chefs, talk to chefs and sell to chefs on a dayly basis, allso met up with 2 of the CEO's of Shun in Europe a few weeks ago when they visited my shop. Even though the OP has probably bought his knives allready im still gonna give it my five cents

Globals: Wierd handle which some like and some hate, gyoto formed blade (in short, gyoto is a japanese approach to the western chefs knife, a larger portion of the blade is flat and the curve starts all the way at the end, gives a larger contact area with the board) supporting both a european style knife technique aswell as chopping (larger contact area equals better for chopping), light weight and thin blades. Very easy to clean, rockwell 56-58. Somewhat flexible blades, japanese edge, 15 degree angle (15 on each side actual edge is 30)

Wusthof: Heavy, buildt like a tank, soft and thick blade. European style blade supporting a european style knife technique where the tip of the blade never leaves the board. Too thick to support any kind of flexibility. European edge, 20 degree angle (actual edge 40)

Shun: Medium weight, thin and hard blade. European style knife supporting a european style knife technique where the tip of the blade never leaves the board. But still the curve of the blade starts a little later then the Wusthof but still isent really a good knife for chopping style movements or mincing. Japanese edge, 16 degree angle (actual edge 32). And most importaintly in my oppinion, they have a D shaped handle which fills MY hand in a very good way. Perfect for a right handed user

Now all of these knives have subtle differences that means the edge retention is different in more then one way. The 20 degree angle of the Wusthofs is 33% thicker than a Globals, so even though the steel is softer it's going to retain it's edge for quite a while anyhow. Globals on the other hand are way sharper then a Wusthof in the first place, so if you keep them properly steeled theyre pretty much gonna be sharper then wusthofs regardless. Shuns on the other hand have a HRC of 61, and needs a different approach. Theyre edge retention is far better, but theyre significantly harder to sharpen correctly once they have dulled. A shun knife would allso benefit from more of a razor type edge that you would get from a 4000+ grit stone. While the Globals and Wusthofs are actually going to perform their best when sharpened on a 600 to 1000 stone. This is because the shuns have a harder steel which better supports the finer edge a 6000 or 12000 stone gives.

Now I personally HATE Wusthofs but one of my chef friends said that the next time he's gonna buy a new chefs knife he's gonna buy one. And he has allready had everything from Mac to Globals to Shuns and other brands. So really it's all about this and thats, tradeoffs and preferrences. Really, you can discuss this for the rest of your life and you wouldnt find an answer.

So my conclusion in the end, buy a Vulkanus Sharpener, dont worry, be happy! ;P Really, Vulkanus Professional is incredibly good, it decimates both Chefs Choice 120 and the others, same with Minosharp Sharpener, Wusthof Sharpener doesnt even begin to compare, nothing really does. It does shave some steel off your knives and you need to make a cut in something to get rid of the metal shavings after use (for instance a plastic pen) but damn that thing makes all those worries about sharp knives go away. Don't worry, be happy! ;) Sitting here with a 5 USD Scanapan knife in my hand (pic below) and after a goaround with the Vulkanus it's sharp enough that I can shave my arms with it... Absolute ridicilousness, i love it! :P

I am considering the 9' Wusthof Ikon blackwood, does anybody own it....do you know the depth of teh knife, I need a deeper belly for rocking??

First:  Wusthof now advertises their knives as 58 Rockwell, and has for the last couple of years.  It's easy enough to check to see if I'm faking.  And yes, a 200 year old company doesn't make knives the same way every year.  There have been improvements.

Wusthof's latest and greatest is moving away from hand sharpening and to laser guided machine sharpening.  Their new edge is a straight "V," the old one was somewhat convexed.  The new edge supposedly comes sharper out of the box and lasts longer.  I don't know.  But, it doesn't really matter either because sooner or later you either replace the factory edge with your own, or are forever doomed to a dull knife.

Second:  An Ikon has more belly than most French but less than most German profiles.  I can't tell if you it will suit your action or not, but it feels heavy and graceless in my hands.  Comfortable handle, though.  In my opinion, it's an okay knife but there are better for the money.  That's not so much the ergonomics, but mostly the alloy.  50XCrMoV15 has all kinds of limitations when it comes to edge taking and edge holding; on the other hand, it's durable and can take a lot of abuse. 

Even with current yen/dollar trading levels, the Ikon retail price range is where Japanese knives start getting interesting.  I try to steer most people in that direction, but if you know you really want an Ikon... all in all it's a good knife and there aren't compelling reasons to tell you to run away from it.

BDL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabs88 

Wusthof sure as hell didnt, and their Rockwell is not 58 it's 55 to 57. Globals is 56\58 and Shuns is 61.

 

Now I have been working in a kitchen store for a few months now where we have all of these knives in store. Im not a professional chef but I live with professional chefs, talk to chefs and sell to chefs on a dayly basis, allso met up with 2 of the CEO's of Shun in Europe a few weeks ago when they visited my shop. Even though the OP has probably bought his knives allready im still gonna give it my five cents

 

Globals: Wierd handle which some like and some hate, gyoto formed blade (in short, gyoto is a japanese approach to the western chefs knife, a larger portion of the blade is flat and the curve starts all the way at the end, gives a larger contact area with the board) supporting both a european style knife technique aswell as chopping (larger contact area equals better for chopping), light weight and thin blades. Very easy to clean, rockwell 56-58. Somewhat flexible blades, japanese edge, 15 degree angle (15 on each side actual edge is 30)

 

Wusthof: Heavy, buildt like a tank, soft and thick blade. European style blade supporting a european style knife technique where the tip of the blade never leaves the board. Too thick to support any kind of flexibility. European edge, 20 degree angle (actual edge 40)

 

Shun: Medium weight, thin and hard blade. European style knife supporting a european style knife technique where the tip of the blade never leaves the board. But still the curve of the blade starts a little later then the Wusthof but still isent really a good knife for chopping style movements or mincing. Japanese edge, 16 degree angle (actual edge 32). And most importaintly in my oppinion, they have a D shaped handle which fills MY hand in a very good way. Perfect for a right handed user

 

Now all of these knives have subtle differences that means the edge retention is different in more then one way. The 20 degree angle of the Wusthofs is 33% thicker than a Globals, so even though the steel is softer it's going to retain it's edge for quite a while anyhow. Globals on the other hand are way sharper then a Wusthof in the first place, so if you keep them properly steeled theyre pretty much gonna be sharper then wusthofs regardless. Shuns on the other hand have a HRC of 61, and needs a different approach. Theyre edge retention is far better, but theyre significantly harder to sharpen correctly once they have dulled. A shun knife would allso benefit from more of a razor type edge that you would get from a 4000+ grit stone. While the Globals and Wusthofs are actually going to perform their best when sharpened on a 600 to 1000 stone. This is because the shuns have a harder steel which better supports the finer edge a 6000 or 12000 stone gives.

 

Now I personally HATE Wusthofs but one of my chef friends said that the next time he's gonna buy a new chefs knife he's gonna buy one. And he has allready had everything from Mac to Globals to Shuns and other brands. So really it's all about this and thats, tradeoffs and preferrences. Really, you can discuss this for the rest of your life and you wouldnt find an answer.

 

So my conclusion in the end, buy a Vulkanus Sharpener, dont worry, be happy! ;P Really, Vulkanus Professional is incredibly good, it decimates both Chefs Choice 120 and the others, same with Minosharp Sharpener, Wusthof Sharpener doesnt even begin to compare, nothing really does. It does shave some steel off your knives and you need to make a cut in something to get rid of the metal shavings after use (for instance a plastic pen) but damn that thing makes all those worries about sharp knives go away. Don't worry, be happy! ;) Sitting here with a 5 USD Scanapan knife in my hand (pic below) and after a goaround with the Vulkanus it's sharp enough that I can shave my arms with it... Absolute ridicilousness, i love it! :P

Good point Gabs88, I'm behind you on this one.

I've tried many different varieties of knives, the one that kept its edge the longest, and the one I had to take so much more care of is the Japanese multi-layered forged knife by Hattori (I believe the HD range).

But these knives and others that I've used are high maintenance so I've resorted to just use the Scanpan range with a Smith's Diamond edge sharpener for pretty much everything. Yes, I colour-coordinate the knives =]

Thomas - Cooking classes

Hattori HD isn't a good choice for a working pro.  What or who led you to choose it? 

Regarding your current choices:  If you like your knives, and apparently you do, fantastic! 

But the advice to buy cheap knives and a coarse, destructive sharpener is defeatist.  If someone sharpens reasonably well (or is willing to learn to do so), and afford knives of reasonable quality, that someone can do a helluva lot better.

In my opinion.

BDL

thanks Boar, that helped a lot!!