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Sabatier? - Page 2

post #31 of 52
Not only is it an Four Star, Elephant (Thiers-Issard) Sab Nogent, it's the same knife I was just whining about. Coincidence?

BDL
post #32 of 52

Sabatier is the most renowned and respected brand of culinary hand tools for most (at least European) Chefs.

 

They are particularly known for their Carbon Steel knives (the ones that tarnish and rust).  See, to make steel a stainless/non rusting alloy, "zink" and "nickel" are mixed with the iron.  Nickel is rock hard but zink is a very soft metal that will not do much to hold your sharp edge.  The difference is even more noticeable, doing real work in the kitchen, when your knife starts dulling.  It is so easy to put a fine sharp new edge on carbon steel in a few minutes.

 

Hardness is always in debate because the right answer constitutes a compromise. The harder the metal, the more it retains it's edge, it is also more brittle (can break by dropping it) and is more challenging to put a new edge on.  Less hardness makes for a more flexible knife that is easier to sharpen but also doesn't stay sharp as long.  What is perfect also depends on the size of the knife (it is more important that a 14" knife has some flexibility than a 3" paring knife) the thickness and height of the knife and the composition of the alloy.

Generally Rockwell index of 68 is considered good for culinary knives

 

As a professional, stay away from Sabatier with the "K" label.  They are a lower grade, modern developed knives, I don't even believe that they are all truly made by Sabatier in Thiers, France.

What you want is Sabatier with and elephant in it's logo and printed on the knife, or what I bought as a culinary apprentice, or Sabatiers with a Diamond or 4 stars in it's logo.  I now search Google to find the Diamond ones.

 

Before buying any knife you want to learn if you prefer the "German" design of Chef's knife, or the "French" design of Chef's knife.  There is a PROFOUND difference.

German knives have more arched cutting edge (Bowed instead of straight line) this allows for a more rocking horse, wig-wam, up and down movement as you cut, it also creates less knife edge contact with the cutting board, more back and foreward movement is needed to make the same cuts.  French knives are a little rounded, but have a staight portion of the edge that makes more contact with the board and therefor cuts more with less effort (it also dulls the knife quicker)

German knives are Taller in body (measurement from the edge to the top of the blade), so your knuckles will always have enough room and never hit the board.  This tall body is less flexible, so when you scrape or your knife is not straight, you feel it directly in your mussels, it also adds weight and mass to the knife.  German knives tend to be thicker at the base (and everywhere else) then French knives.  This makes it harder to cut through things (thicker kerf).

While the German knives feel really robust, taut and indestructible, the needed increased physical movement, and the size and weight of the knife makes it a more tiring knife.  I can cut all day with a French 10" knife, a German one, I start feeling the mussels in my lower, upper arm and even my shoulders after a while.  I have been a Chef for 39 years and have always favored French knives but it is a personal choice. I just want you to be aware of the differences.

 

The mystique of Sabatier, I know this is getting long; They are one of the most longstanding brands.  I guess that when professional cooking increased, there were a lot of little shops (brands) that made the tools.  Sabatier was one of the early companies and is still here today. In the 50's, when Europe started to rebuild prosperity after the war and French cuisine became very popular and revered because of Augustine Escoffier, etc,, There were not all the other brands, Henkels, Dreizag Werk, and so forth, Sabatier reigned in the industry as the knife superior to all others.  They were expensive and young culinarians on super low wages desired those knives that their Chefs had.

In the early 70's, some European countries (North western ones) outlaw'd the sale even of tools that were not stainless steel.  Those carbon Sabatiers became collectors items and very sought after.  A 10" Sabatier Chef's knife could fetch $200-$250.

I was a culinary apprentice, age 17, my "from childhood on and off" girlfriend's father was a chef and a man I looked up to.  When I landed a new job/apprenticeship at a famous Michelin Star (just one :-)) restaurant, he was very proud of me.  He excused himself went up to the attic of their home where he had stored old tool boxes and came back with 3 Sabatier knives, an 8", 10" and 12" Chef knife, tainted to almost black, but not rusted, covered in, what seemed from years ago, salad oil, shiny edges, evidence of them been sharpened many times but the right shape still in tact, some wear on the handles, but very little.  He gave them to me as a gift for me doing well as an apprentice. You ask about the mystique, those Sabatiers mean a lot to me.

 

Good Luck in your culinary endeavors

post #33 of 52

Any particular reason to search out a 7 year old thread and post this? 

Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
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post #34 of 52

Nostalgia, some anecdotes to add to the Sabatier heritage, we can excuse him overlooking the date.

 

 

Rick


Edited by Rick Alan - 4/9/15 at 10:53am
post #35 of 52

I'm afraid that WindmillChef gives a bunch of mishmash that really misses most of the marks.

 

He doesn't get that "Sabatier" knives have never been trademarked as a "single name" brand, nor made by a single firm or company.  A simple Wikipedia search would have shown that.

 

As for "zink", maybe a bit of spellcheck would help.  And pardon me, but I don't recall any steel in kitchen knives using zinc.  Can anyone credible cite to me a specific steel with zinc as part of the steel?  If my "rusty" marine memory serves me right, zinc is the least noble metal around - and can be self-destructive in being its own anode in any galvanic situation.  Definitely not a good element to have in steel.

 

And a "Rockwell index of 68 is considered good for culinary knives"  Whaaaa??????

 

As for K Sabatier knives, I have a modern carbon steel 250 mm K Sab chef's knife.  Outside of needing to reduce the bolster, it's a fairly good knife.  Mind you, I can't and won't speak for K Sabatier's stainless steel knives, but the carbon blades are a good value.  Boar D Laze considered them to be the equal of the modern Thiers Issard carbon steel "4 Star Elephants".

 

As for "outlawing" of carbon steel knives?  My reaction to that is a dropped jaw.  The only "outlawing" was market pressure.  When carbon steel knives simply didn't sell compared to "stainless" knives, then stores dropped them.  That's a long way from being "outlawed".  

 

As for where they are made, all of the carbon steel blades from K Sab, Thiers Issard and Mercier et Cie are all still being made in Thiers.

 

That's just some of the items from WindmillChef.  I'm otherwise tempted to think of windmills and a Man from La Mancha.

 

The only good I can see from his post is that it brings BDL back to our attention.

 

 

 

Galley Swiller


Edited by Galley Swiller - 4/10/15 at 6:43pm
post #36 of 52

Oh jeez, I did say anecdotal but my autistic-level skimming actually missed much of the rather extreme stuff.  "Outlawed" I sort of took as poetic license, but of course the rest GS points out of Windmill's accounts is way off.  Ah well, artists, and chefs too I guess, are known for such creative takes on things.

 

 

Rick

post #37 of 52
Maybe more importantly WTF spooked BDL so bad he hasn't returned?

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #38 of 52

Phaedrus commented a while ago that he had pm'd him and the reply was that he was just tired of being the knife guru and tired of talking about food.  From what it seems he originally came here with the idea of getting his head together about how to complete his book, and it appears as though his ideas just didn't come together to his satisfaction, despite the likelihood that everyone else would have been.   After several years it seemed he just needed a rest from it all.  Over at Barrista.com he has transformed into a coffee guru and apparently happy as a pig in you know what with that, for the moment, or at least he was for a while.

 

I do hope he finishes that book.

 

 

Rick

post #39 of 52
Being an expert is really challenging, especially when constantly trying to maintain that status online. It's no wonder he burned out.
post #40 of 52

I once mentioned that the knife forum seemed to be an infomercial and that was the last time I saw any of his comments.  I wished I knew half as much as he.

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply
post #41 of 52
It does seem like an infomercial at times. Good observation
post #42 of 52

Cheftalk has had no shortage of real experts as Niko pointed out, but nobody wrote like BDL.  As someone who has written relatively esoteric instructional material aimed at the general public, I really appreciated his combination of style, wit and complete clarity through it all, along with the willingness to share, regardless of the motivation behind it, even if he was a bit of a sh*t at times.

 

 

Rick

post #43 of 52
You can't argue that BDL had or has a gift with words and you might even say it was entertainment lol, and I would agree a great level of knife knowledge too, but I believe the most overlooked talent is the ability to break things down to a point that is "usable "for a person of most any level of experience and especially noobs that is beneficial to finding what may be most suitable even when you didn't realize it yourself.

At least he's enjoying coffee talk lol and it wasn't anything to do with the commercial direction things have been going.

I know it is hindering my interest and contributions.

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #44 of 52

I don't follow, what do you mean by "commercial"?

 

 

Rick


Edited by Rick Alan - 4/12/15 at 5:31am
post #45 of 52

Phlegmatic.  An attorney, BDL is phlegmatic to a tee!

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply
post #46 of 52
Honestly?

Am I the only one?

Does anyone else see the adds, or notice dead ended closed threads (see boos board cracking etc), or get email notification on threads your not subscribed to, or?

I know it by happens to many places, but am just not 100% comfortable with contributing freely towards others who partake for profit.

Otherwise still "love" ya all lol

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #47 of 52

Ahahaha, I thought you were talking about the knife forum in particular.  But this is of course a for-profit site, and I personally haven't experienced any obnoxious-level intrusions to my email yet.  I don't think I get emails from a post till I make a comment.  Perhaps I've gotten notifications from posts I'd visited a few times.

 

I doesn't seem to me BDL wasn't turned off by any commercialism, he was after all at one time contemplating a PR type business relationship with cktg.  I'd be more inclined to believe he didn't appreciate some of my intrusions into posts he commented in.  I recall he once answered a question from me with, "Stupid is as stupid does."  The intent of the comment itself wasn't completely clear, but it was accompanied by some apparent sarcasm.   ;-)~

 

 

Rick

post #48 of 52
Yes it's not as much an issue in the other forums due to my personal browsing vs postings as much less active outside the knife forums and just use much of the others for reference and reading etc.

And sarcasm? , what sarcasm lmao

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #49 of 52

You can turn off notifications and subscriptions in your profile. I would prefer that off was the default. If you need more help with that let me know. 

Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
Reply
Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
Reply
post #50 of 52
I know many who would benefit from using the quotables from that movie as a religion wink.gif

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply

 

"love my country" but "fear my government"  Something is just wrong with this

 

 

 

Looking for info on entry level J-knives? Need help on finding the most bang for your buck? Hope you enjoy learning from the info here, I know I did!

http://www.cheftalk.com/t/63213/tojiro-dp-f-809-240mm-g...

Reply
post #51 of 52

My old Sabatiers go well with oilstones, especially with my combo soft Arkansas and Hard Surgical Black from Halls Stones.  When it comes to finishing off the edge..................... the Surgical Black, both sides of the edge is first forced against the grain of the stone with the oil rubbed off.  Then both edges are drawn backwards along the surface of the black surgical to even out the wire.  Then if I don't like the edge, I draw the edge thru a vertical standing cardboard box flap to further hone the wire.  That sulfur bond that holds together the cardboard is the strongest - it even quells infections when broken properly and eaten!   Something to state about brown and yellow.        HA!!!!


Edited by kokopuffs - 4/16/15 at 10:27am

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply

Best and I'm a foodie.   I know very little but the little that I know I want to know very well.

 

-T

Brot und Wein
(1 photos)
 
Reply
post #52 of 52


I don't know about the Sabatier K but after using both German and Japanese knives in the past, I've fallen in love with 5* Elephant and the White Micarta handles. You can find out more about Thiers Issard at greatfrenchknives.com

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