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Methylcellulose - how much to use

post #1 of 37
6/7/08 at 6:08am
Thread Starter 
I got whacky today and ordered 4 oz of this stuff purely for experimental purposes. My facilities are quite primative - pretty much some chilled bottled water to mix it up in and a microwave and a bowl to heat it up to "firming temp."

I bought from willpowder.net - the variety that forms a "Very firm gel forms at 38 – 44 degrees C." I can guestimate the amount of time it will need in the microwave to come up to temp. The thing I don't know is how much product to use for a 500 ml bottle of water. I assume more powder, thicker gelled consistency. Anybody have a rule of thumb for me to start with?

For now, I'm just mixing it in water to play around with - I have no other ingredients that I'd want to make "hot jello" with. I just want to play around with the stuff and create the effect of "melting" as it cools.

Focus
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post #2 of 37
6/7/08 at 6:54am
What is methylcellulose and how does it relate to food? What's it used for?

scb
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post #3 of 37
6/7/08 at 8:45am
Is that what they make "caviar" out of? I've seen it on Iron Chef.
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post #4 of 37
6/7/08 at 11:30am
I think the caviar chemical is sodium alginate IIRC.

No idea about using methylcellulose when cooking. It seems to be made by mixing cellulose with drano and chloromethane.

What's crazy about the stuff, from what I'm reading, is that it acts like the opposite of oil/fat, where it melts when cold and gels up when hot.

It also makes you fart!

It's a legal food additive in the EU, check out E461


I probably share the same unspoken feelings on cooking with these kinds of things as shel, but my opinion wasn't asked for, so I'll keep quiet for now.
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post #5 of 37
6/7/08 at 2:44pm
Theres a lot of chefs working with hydro-collides and the like. I have yet to take the big leap, although I love to cook sous vide.Anyway a local chef is doing some pretty cool stuff and wanted to share his website with you all.

His name is Noel Jones.

Welcome to the restaurant ON20 - sensuous food, passionately prepared
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post #6 of 37
6/7/08 at 8:15pm
Thread Starter 
So, to summarize:
- It gels when warmed and "melts" when cooled
- It gives you gas
- at least some people are now freaked out b/c they think it's toxic
- The crack team of scientists at nac.allergyforum.com let us know that sulfuric acid is "not permitted in Australia;" apparently everywhere else uses it like salt
- We have a shameless - but unhelpful - plug for a resturant (although it did go into my favorites for when I move to New England this fall)
- and I still have no answer to my question

Anyone have anything constructive to add this time?
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post #7 of 37
6/8/08 at 7:18am
Good way to garner support.:confused:
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post #8 of 37
6/8/08 at 8:51am
Focus does have a point. He/she asked a specific question and hasn't really received a helpful answer yet.


Maybe the Koreans can help.

"...Add 1.0 g of Methyl Cellulose to 100 ml of water at about 70°. Stir well, cool while shaking. and allow to stand in a cold place until it becomes a uniformly pasty solution. Use this solution as the test solution..."



I'm sticking with the excuse that I was responding to Shel's question.:D

Australia? Why bring that up? Do you live there?
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post #9 of 37
6/8/08 at 8:58am
Actually, I just asked a question and wasn't intending to express any feelings about using the stuff. I never heard of methylcellulos ....

However, knowing my preference for simple, natural foods and preparations, it's understandable that you might think that I was expressing some negative feelings about the product ...

shel
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post #10 of 37
6/8/08 at 3:06pm
Is this a druggy site? first "meth" then "crack", then "acid". What's going on?
anyway, something called methylcellulose hardly sounds edible or safe. Maybe i'm just old fashioned.
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post #11 of 37
6/8/08 at 3:07pm
more seriously, where do you get the idea that "everywhere else" people eat sulphuric acid. Not here, for sure.
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post #12 of 37
6/8/08 at 9:32pm
Thread Starter 
It was a bit of a jab at the source material - as was the reference to sulfuric acid. If that site was all you had to go on, you'd think this stuff was some kind of poison and all you'd know about sulfuric acid was that it was banned as a food additive in Australia. I see my attempt at dry humor (and my frustration at not getting an answer) was lost.

It is edible (although it's not digested). It is safe - at least in quantities you'd get in the occasional experimental food preparation. It's not "simple, natural, or old fashioned" but that's exactly the point of using it - to create a remarkably different eating experience.

Thanks much to OahuAmateurChef for finding a starting point for my mad science...
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post #13 of 37
6/8/08 at 9:51pm
HAH nice, gave me a good laugh:lol:

I'd like to try smoking some methylcellulose. Where can I get some?
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post #14 of 37
6/9/08 at 1:58am
I didn;t see any site so i don;t know any more than i read here. Maybe my own humor was being lost.
Anyway, it seems to me (as an old fashioned person) that food is supposed to be digestible. And additives, it appears, are only considered "safe" until shown to be dangerous. But additives aren't people (who have the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty) and how many food additives (or other stuff) do you know that have been thought safe until later they were found to be cancerogenous or whatever?
You may be too young to remember when children's shoe stores had xray machines right in the store- you would stand with the new shoes on with your feet under the x-ray device and look in at the screen on top and see if the shoes fit. You could actually see the bones. Imagine. It was thought safe! I loved it, it was fun. It was part of the 50s' belief in the total and utter goodness of technology.
I don;t know chemistry enough to remember the long list of ingredients that have been banned over the years after being used profusely in the production of food.
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post #15 of 37
6/9/08 at 3:53am
Thread Starter 
It's apparently already in a lot of the food you already eat - ice cream being one. It's also a bit of a rage among "molecular gastronomists" for the weird effect of becoming firm when heated and "melting" when it cools. It also helps make warm foams. I'm no professional, but I do enjoy experimenting in the kitchen and think it would be cool to do some kind of gimick for a dinner guest.

It's not digestable in the same way that cellulose from the plants we eat is not digestable - so it's not something that's totally foreign to the body. In fact, I'm pretty sure it just passes right through. Sure, there could be some ill effects 50 yeears from now, but I'm going to roll the bones and guess that some occasional experimentation isn't going to kill me too soon.

Focus
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post #16 of 37
6/9/08 at 6:01am
It's not in the ice cream I eat, nor is it in any of the food I eat.

scb
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post #17 of 37
6/9/08 at 6:48am
Thread Starter 
excuse the **** out of me. didn't mean to offend your purist sensitivities. I bet it's in your toothpaste, though.
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post #18 of 37
6/9/08 at 8:23am
You've not offended my sensitivities. I was just responding to your broad based comment. There's no need for sarcasm or rude language.

Methylcellulose is not in the toothpaste I use.

scb
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post #19 of 37
6/9/08 at 8:51am
Many traditional and ancient foods have long used chemistry to make things happen. They simply didn't know what exactly caused it. Cooking corn in calcium hydroxide (lime rock, not lime fruit) or many other bases allowed native americans to achieve a balanced diet eating a primarily corn-based diet (note that when corn migrated across the Atlantic people who started eating corn-dominated diets suffered malnutrition because they didn't know about nixtamalization).

Granted, methylcellulose isn't the same thing as calcium hydroxide... but they can both sound scary and they're both additives, no?
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post #20 of 37
6/9/08 at 10:21am
Methylcellulose is a man-made chemical, and while it's probably safe, we've seen over the years that many of man's creations have caused health and environmental problems. Of course, eating some natural things may not be healthy, but that's a different situation IMO.

shel
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post #21 of 37
6/10/08 at 4:13am
Thread Starter 
simply stunning. I wasn't looking for a debate over it. and I don't especially care what everyone's opinion is. I'm truly sorry I asked.

Is it just me or is this site really pretentious and uptight?
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post #22 of 37
6/10/08 at 6:06am
Thread Starter 
BTW, if all this crazy chemistry talk has freaked anyone out, check your lables:

Add methyl cellulose for healthy battered food "Methyl cellulose is amongst the most frequently used hydrocolloids by the food industry."

Chicago Personal Trainer Explains Common Food Ingredients and Additives "It is used as a thickener in many jams, jellies, and pie fillings"

It seems to be safe: Clean safety profile for HPMC as a food ingredient "A safety assessment of the widely used hydrocolloid hydroxypropyl methylcellulose (HPMC) has shown that everyday intake is well below any level that may cause safety concerns."

It may even be good for you: Hydrocolloids' health benefits extended

But it may not be explicitly labled: Clean safety profile for HPMC as a food ingredient "HPMC, also authorised to be labelled as carbohydrate gum in the US,"

And foodfacts.com lists 135 common products containing it including:
Burger King Chicken Whopper Sandwich
Breyers Carb Smart Vanilla Ice Cream Cone
Green Giant Broccoli & Cheese Giant Bites
Loads of hot pockets
Morning Star Farms Breaded Broccoli Cheddar Veggie Bites
Progresso Roasted Potato Garic Chowder Pizza rolls

This is by no means an all-inclusive list but it looks like it's in a ton of stuff.

Edit: I should say at this point that - apart from a 16 hr marathon work session during which I will eat the occasional hot pocket - noting on the above list appeals to me in any way. The evidence would just suggest that this particular synthetic ingredient is in more stuff than we realize.

It like ninja - it everywhere. Be afraid, be very afraid...

Again, I'm willing to roll the bones. If eating processed food shortens my life by 2 years and I only make it to 84 (men in my family live a long time), oh well. At least it tasted good.

Focus
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post #23 of 37
6/10/08 at 8:17am
I agree. You asked a particular question about an ingredient that happens to not be man made. I would definitely say you received pretentious and uptight responses.

Of these you consider pretentious and uptight, we are only talking about 3 or 4 members that have posted on this thread, out of many hundreds of forum members. We three or four have a great passion about what kinds of ingredients are appropriate and inappropriate to cook with. I admit I'm one of them!

I'd like to say that we have almost no posts about cooking with synthetic ingredients for at least several months, probably much longer.

To sum it up:
I think a more accurate way to word the statement would be, "Is is me or are the recently most active forum members pretentious and uptight about cooking with man-made ingredients?"

In this case I'd say, yes! Guilty!:suprise:


How about we respect your original question and keep those kinds of comments out of this thread?


I am eager for a debate about this! Perhaps we can start a new thread?


Anyways, have you been able to test methylcellulose much since your first post?

Have you had sucess?
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post #24 of 37
6/10/08 at 8:19am
Your above post is great debate material.

I have a lot to say.
Won't touch it here.

Need a new thread.
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post #25 of 37
6/10/08 at 8:45pm
Thread Starter 
Well put OAC, I think I understand a little better. The other message board I spend a lot of time on is one for homebrewers. They're serious about being very laid back - so that's where I'm coming from.

This probably is a good subject for a debate amongst the chefs and foodies here - I just wouldn't participate. I have no strong feelings either way. These synthetic ingredients are what they are. If you like using them, fine. If not, fine. I'm not worried about them killing me either next week (unlikely) or pretty much any time after age 75 (more likely, but not troubling - how long does anyone want to live anyway?)

Regarding the stuff in question: I've only just ordered it and hope it gets here soon. I'll post my experimental results when I have some for anyone that does care.

Focus
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post #26 of 37
6/12/08 at 3:50pm
Wow, what great things to eat! Is that supposed to be evidence that it's ok? All you've shown is that it seems to be a product essential to the junk food industry. Even you don;t like eating these things you say. So what's your point?
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post #27 of 37
6/12/08 at 7:50pm
Thread Starter 
my point is no more or less than that it's common.

Remember, I'm not here to debate about it or convince anyone anything about it.
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post #28 of 37
6/13/08 at 2:52pm
I'd be very surprised if the initiator of this thread didn't know full well that methylcellulose is the base ingredient for Citrucel, a very widely used laxative. It's been a very cruel gag ingredient in many a fraternity pledge party. It's also the key ingredient in most water based personal lubricants, i.e. K-Y Jelly.

Someone wrote: "It makes you fart." It does far more than that and shouldn't be used to play with someone's food. If someone with a severe disgestive disorder were to be subjected to ingestion of methylcellulose, even if no malice were intended, and they became ill, it is by definition felony battery.
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post #29 of 37
6/13/08 at 5:41pm
Let me preface my comment and question by saying that I agree with you, and also that I'm surprised by the uses you mention. Of course, being a skeptic, I'll look further into your assertions with the intention of learning more about this and similar chemicals and how they're used.

Assuming that you're correct, and that methylcellulose can cause severe problems to those ingesting it, how can its use in these products, as posted by Focus, be explained:
Burger King Chicken Whopper Sandwich
Breyers Carb Smart Vanilla Ice Cream Cone
Green Giant Broccoli & Cheese Giant Bites
Loads of hot pockets
Morning Star Farms Breaded Broccoli Cheddar Veggie Bites
Progresso Roasted Potato Garic Chowder Pizza rolls
Would the major corporations that produce these products risk the potential problems that you suggest ...?

scb
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post #30 of 37
6/13/08 at 5:44pm
And I'd strongly disagree with you.

scb
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