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The Bakers Dozen - Page 2

post #31 of 58
11/20/01 at 8:59am
Steam Kills! :)I need to allow for the steam to escape the crumb while the bread is still in the oven. If I don't it will escape as the bread cools. This is what softens the crust. I am going to try not spritzing, just using the pan under the stone. I am also going to try and gradually decrease the temperature of the oven as the bread bakes, ending up by turning the oven off and leaving the bread in for 10 minutes.
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post #32 of 58
11/20/01 at 9:18am
Sounds great KyleW. Thanks. :)

It must have been an awesome evening. Got Claudia's authograph by any wonderful chance? ;)
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post #33 of 58
11/20/01 at 10:18am
Now THAT sounds like fun. Are these events open to the public?
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post #34 of 58
11/20/01 at 10:54am
I think so, as long as you are willing to pay dues :) There is a Baker's Dozen East. I will see if I can find out how to join/contact them.
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post #35 of 58
11/20/01 at 12:52pm
Thread Starter 
Way too cool of an experience! I don't know if you read through their book before the event, but, during the question period did you hear any further interesting tips you could pass on to us?

I really really hope this club spreads across the country!
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post #36 of 58
11/22/01 at 4:42am
I think I was too star struck to remember anything other than the sourdough crust thing :)
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post #37 of 58
11/22/01 at 1:47pm

LOL !!

Now that's really funny Kyle. :lol: :lol:
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post #38 of 58
11/26/01 at 6:29am
Thread Starter 
Momoreg the wedding cake book I refered to is titled, "The Perfect Wedding Cake" by Kate Manchester. It's for brides to guide them thru buying their wedding cake. Nice lists of references thru out the country (where I found sweetlisas.com).

The pastry book I refered to earilier is "Sweet Seasons" by Richard Leach from Park Ave. Cafe, NYC.
It's all plated desserts, I thought it looked very nice, contempory yet grounded.

I saw these at Barnes N Noble....
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post #39 of 58
11/26/01 at 7:25am
Kylie this is what I do BUT I use an electrical oven and NOT gas.
Our ovens are more dry that the gas ones and they let the steam off

Have you ever baked in an electrical oven? I wonder how I am gonna get used to baking with gas in NY... :confused:
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post #40 of 58
11/26/01 at 7:49am
Fear not Athenaeus! New York is a city rife with electric ovens, my EasyBake oven included :)
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post #41 of 58
11/26/01 at 10:54am
Thanks, Wendy.:)
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post #42 of 58
11/26/01 at 11:23am

Crunchy Crust

To blazes with adding ice cubes or a steam atomizer. Increasing baking temperature has been the solution for obtaining crunchy crusts. Formerly I baked bread at 425-450 F. The crust was tough and semi soft. My electric oven which contains a baking stone is preheated to 475 for one hour preceding loaf insertion. The bread bakes at 475 for 10-15 minutes after which the heat is reduced to 450. Total baking time is 1 hour. The crust turns out veeeerrrrry crunchy. :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
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post #43 of 58
11/26/01 at 12:06pm
Sorry for sounding narrow minded by I have always to answer to the question if the defendant is quilty or not... :p

So, judging from Kylie's and Kokopuff's posts, electric ovens are the best for baking bread...

Let me drop a line to Santa...
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post #44 of 58
11/26/01 at 12:14pm

OVENS

Well, Athenaeus, let me recommend my Suzy Homemaker oven that uses a 75 watt lightbulb as a heating element!
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post #45 of 58
11/26/01 at 11:53pm

Baking in the fireplace

Thanks Kokopuffs.

I think that it would be very fun if you could come and see a traditional way to bake bread in our traditional ovens.
If you ever visit Greece ask to see one of those.
But the fireplace can do just fine also ;)
And the bread is ALWAYS crusty
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post #46 of 58
11/27/01 at 8:35am
I think that this forum is something like the Baker's Dozen, only more organized and much more active. My teacher in school is a member, but she said that they rarely met nor had events. But when they did, they do have interesting discussions much like the ones we have. It's the reason why I like it here so much. The only thing we don't have (or maybe we do and I don't know it) are the more well-known pastry artists and bakers who make groups like the Baker's Dozen famous. Perhaps we could get a more well-known member of the Baker's Dozen to be the guest of one of our live chats. Or we can all agree to try making one identical recipe and share the results on line. We can be more scientific about our observations and come to some conclusions. What I wish of The Baker's Dozen is that they would play more of an advocacy role in setting standards. But judging from the personality of the group, that'll be highly unlikely.

I do know someone at work who is friends with Flo Braker. Maybe I can find out through her whether Ms. Braker might be interested in checking out this bulletin board every once in a while.
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post #47 of 58
11/27/01 at 9:14am

Careful!

Monpetitchoux,

With the use of pseudonyms like we do on Cheftalk, you never know who you're talking to...:rolleyes:
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post #48 of 58
11/28/01 at 4:18am
Thread Starter 
How do you mean, "play more of an advocacy role in setting standards"?

I wish your idea of us testing recipes here would work, but I think the most important thing that's shared physically in a room together is taste then sight. We can't compare because we need to be able to taste and see each others work. Plus the other point is procedure, which they've re-stated just how important that is in their angel food cake bake-off. You have to really be scientic in taking notes as you work to find the proceedural differences'.

Unforunately I can't see how we could dig much deeper on line then we do now. One thing that would be nice is more feed back when a recipe is offered by the people who asked for the recipe, 'was it good'? ..."did you ever make that"...etc...

I do favor trying/baking posted recipes when two or more people have weighed in their opinion on a specific recipe!
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post #49 of 58
11/28/01 at 12:53pm
Hi Wendy,

What I am after is a standardized weighing and measuring system. Since weighing will yield more consistent results over measuring in cups, I would like to have it standardized in weights. For example, I have come to equate 1 cup of sugar to weigh 5 ounces. But some people will say it is less, some will say it is more. Also, tablespoons of different shapes will hold different amounts. It's supposed to be 15 ml, but it isn't always so. I suppose the government is the only entity that can set standards and hold companies producing measuring equipment to them, but until that happens, it would simply be easier if we can all agree professionally what one cup of flour weighs. Since there are very well-respected pastry chefs and bakers in the group, I think they have the power to persuade the rest of us to a standard or measurement in weights. I know that I am very anal retentive about this, but it drives me nuts! The other thing is that I wish books published in the US would also list ingredients in metrics. As there are many cookbook authors also in the group, I know they can persuade the publishers to do this. In most cases, it's just simple arithmetic and can't cost that much more in priting costs. So unfortunately, my cooking school teacher said that this topic came up for discussion once at a baker's Dozen meeting and the members present couldn't agree. I'm not sure whether members even want what I want, but that's what I want.

Also, don't you think it would be fun if we really could get together in the same room and all make one recipe and look and taste? I don't know where we could find a place with so many ovens or even be able to organize such an event, but hey, we've succeeded in some get togethers.
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post #50 of 58
11/29/01 at 6:26am
Thread Starter 
Well of course that would be very fun Monpetitechoux. I have my fingers crossed that one day I'll hear about a Chicago chapter of the bakers dozen....

P.S. You forgot to add in the factor that all ovens don't bake the same.


I don't mind the decrepancys in standardized weights....thats the point that seperates the novice from the experienced baker. You just know when to go which way. After all, you have to remember that weather plays a roll in you weights and some flours weight more than others...you can't account for humidity.

Converting recipes does waste time. But I can get a chuckle out of that....I'll spend my time doing that for a good recipe. Many of my peers won't, that's great by me...their missing out of some great homemaker recipes.

I noticed you can buy small silpats everywhere now (their not cheap either) I wonder why the gadget companies aren't pushing using weights?
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post #51 of 58
12/2/01 at 7:19am
You are a true artist, Wendy, and one day, I hope to be able to see you in person. The reason I say that is because once you've mastered the science of cooking, it is only then that you can truly become an artist in the kitchen, in my humble opinion. Just knowing when and how to adjust for humidity in the air is a simplest of artistic touches.

Ever noticed how intimate we become with our ovens? We take care to find out their every intricacy and hidden secret. And, then, like a hopeless lover, we manipulate our products in the the parameters set by the oven to get what we want. Yesterday, I tried to explain to a guy on the line why he couldn't go into the top oven and had to use the lower oven. In the end, I simply said, "the madeleines like to be on top and that's that." At least he understood.

Yep, I'm getting pretty good at multiplying by a factor of 28.5 as well. If I were in marketing at a gadgets company, I would market scales by convincing the home baker that it's the only way to get professional results at home. That this is the way that all professional bakers do to get consistent results. Then I would of course include a volume to weights conversion chart in both metrics and the English system. Then I would wine and dine those at the Baker's Dozen for them to come up with the chart and endorse the product. Then the scales would be flying off the shelves.
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post #52 of 58
12/3/01 at 7:10am
Thread Starter 
Boy can I relate to your madeleine story! I've had that conversation soooo many times. My favorite was trying to explain to the guy the difference in temps settings between a convection and a standard oven (air flow etc...) ...Then factor in our specific oven, how 350 on our top oven is really baking at 425 and the bottom convection set at 350 is really baking at 400. They all look at me as if I'm from MARS. "BUT we had the ovens calabrated", they say and I try to explain why that doesn't apply to their souffle. I'm not that good with words!

After awhile I just gave up, there wasn't anyway even through demo that they'd believe me. We used to sell alot of chocolate souffles and had several parties order cheese souffles as their entree....they'd set the oven on 400 (what the recipe called for) and the out-side would be scorched and the inside runny(because the real temp the convection was baking at was 475).

Yes, it's weird how well you know your ovens when your a baker. It's your violin........


My husband is an engineer type. He cooks completely by time and temp. I've struggled with him for years over his techinque...I cook meat by temp. etc...anyway he's finally winning his point with me. It's totally embarassing to admit, but he can land his baked chicken better than me, totally!!!! Then I read an article in (I think it was gourmet magazine) about a group of chefs and scientists (almost exactly like the bakers dozen) who have been running experiments on cooking meat. They are scientically proving that searing isn't sealing in juice. That lower temp.s are actually making your meats more tender, etc... Some really 'out there' stuff that goes against everything we all learned.

It's actually an exciting time in this field. Running tests, proving things scientically will completely change how we do things.
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post #53 of 58
12/4/01 at 3:51pm
Thread Starter 
Oh speaking of foodtv....on the same episode 'best of' they featured Dufflets in Canada. WOW double WOW 5 million plus a year! and they haven't been around very long.........

Totally amazing story. Thanks to whom ever mentioned them!! I did look them up on line. I was impressed with the visual quality and the selection. But seeing the whole operation on tv rounded out my whole impression. It's like watching Cinderella (I wish I was that cinderella).

P.S. I know the exchange rate is different between Canada and the States but I don't understand it really (the exact exchange amount). The prices on her cakes are sky high for us but aren't they still high for Canadains?
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post #54 of 58
12/4/01 at 6:49pm
Have you been here Wendy? @ Gloria Green or @ Dufflet Pastries of Toronto? Also, Click here for some of their recipes.


Expensive but excellent! :p :p
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post #55 of 58
12/5/01 at 3:47am
Thread Starter 
Thanks Kimmie, I spent alot of time at Dufflets....I love her choices/selections/combinations etc...


So you consider her prices rather high too? Are other bakeries charging similar prices by you?
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post #56 of 58
12/5/01 at 4:59am
Dufflets is "high end" and without a doubt, we are willing to pay a little more for high quality product. I think all "high end" bakeries charge similar prices.

I suppose you know about Vosges Haut Chocolat in Chicago. They make these scrumptious exotic truffles, Mmmm. They are pricey too but look and taste their product!

I'm worth it!! :rolleyes:
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post #57 of 58
12/18/01 at 3:57pm

Guess what I found out...

Flo Braker, Carolyn Weil, Evie Lieb were holding a demonstration at Draeger's Market in San Mateo last week and I got to go for free. Carolyn Weil and Flo Braker said that they tried and tried and tried to get the publishers of their new book to list the ingredients by weight but the publishers wouldn't do it. Throughout the demo, they kept emphasizing their preference for measuring ingredients by weight. But then they didn't have a standard to follow. It gets tricky, they said, when measuring brown sugar because everyone packs it differently. So the point that I wanted to make was that it only comes into concern when we measure for existing recipes. But there is no reason not to set the weight in new recipes being written. But there is no real reason to set a standard for brown sugar anyway (for me it's 7 oz. or 200 grams per dry cup). Well, Flo Braker said that she'd mail me a flyer for their next meeting coming in January, so I'll let you know how that goes.
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post #58 of 58
12/20/01 at 3:44am
Thread Starter 
Interesting monpetitchoux, sounds logical to me. Except why publishers wouldn't list both weights and cups??. It's not like they couldn't do both.....Too much space? Ha.

Hope you'll let us know what you learn in the future from this talented group....I look forward to it.
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