Cool and the fda

Amen to it all, Chef Ed. Explain to me how a bag of mixed lettuce escapes the law but a head of romaine does not. They have that shady "processed" exception. Before long, they'll call "washing the veggies" a "process" and we'll be right back where we started.

Buy Fresh - Buy Local

Just one more reason to buy fresh, local, in season ingredients, and food from known sources.

Hang on a sec, let me re-read that first post.

Well, yeah, it makes sense. Well, when you think about it, 'course it makes sense.

Raw, unprocessed foods must state country of origin, processed foods do not. Big difference. Processed foods are processed at home, home where the big boy businesses are, you know-- the boys who contribute towards campaign war chests, who... well, you know....

I'm moving this to the Late Night Cafe so we can rant all we want.

Maybe in Florida you're being duped. However, here, and I know in many other parts of the country as well, good quality local produce is available, and one needn't go outside the country - or even outside the state in many instances - to get good fruits and vegetables.

In fact, here people were so upset to discover that some items in some markets were grown and produced in China, the uproar caused those market chains to get new suppliers and and discontinue carrying their old products that were Made in China.

Part of the problem is - and I believe this with all my heart - too many people only want cheap food. They don't give much of a rat's *** where it comes from, how good the quality is (they think plastic wrapped chicken at Safeway and Wal-Mart is "good"), and that quality food is a "rip off."

In all due respect, Ed, Florida's agricultural rules are a moreass of strange regulations, many of which run counter to what the rest of the world is doing.

In most of the United States, farmers markets are strictly controlled as to what they can sell. The state regulations (not to mention the markets' by-laws) stipulate what percentage, if any, of produce can be sold which is not grown by the vendor. In most places the percentages are not very high.

Similarly, value added products are controlled. Usually, if you didn't grow the fruit, for instance, you can't sell the jam. Etc.

This should not be confused with central markets and terminal markets, which are often referred to as farmers markets but which aren't. At those places, anything pretty much goes. Years back, for instance, when the terminal market at the old Floyd Bennet Field was still in existance in New York, it was called a farmers market.

It's quite possible (I haven't looked at the regs) that Florida uses the three market types interchangeably, and calls them all farmers markets. Or it just might be that Florida doesn't control what sold at farmers markets at all; in which case it's simply a matter of buyer beware.

Hi Ed,


I really don't think this is anything new. Many of us refer to "the good ol' days" when chicken had flavor, eggs tasted great, produce was fresh and tasty. Back when a lot of the meats and produce was supplied by local companies.

Now I can agree that things had more taste back then...but I don't think it was any fault of ourselves. Back then taste was just a by-product of buying from honest local farmers. These same people were the ones who initiated the big push to moving toward processed foods and foiled Tv dinners. Convenience comes first followed by price...down far on the current list of priorities is flavor.

Of course now your seeing some grocery stores dedicate sections to "fresh" and organic foods. Which is nice. It also gives people a nice fuzzy feeling inside because their not only doing something for themselves but also something for the environment. That's all well and good but I've found that many of the items are closer to grocery store items than they are garden vegetables. The price is higher though...and they do come with a nice warm and fuzzy feeling :D

Then you have many of the fresh markets run on the weekends. I've been searching for a good one in my area and still haven't found it. I've found some of decent size and with good reputation. But I look at some of the containers and I see that some of them are getting items from absolutely anywhere. Now there are some local farmers bringing their vegetables...and that's nice to see (although I'd still like some tastier varieties).

I've also ran into farmers at these markets that sell farm fresh eggs. They tell me a story about washing these fresh eggs just last night. I get home and the white runs all across the large frying pan. Perhaps these are his eggs, I don't know. But please don't rotate your old stock to me when your supposed to give us fresh eggs!

I've been looking into some local (within 30 miles) CSA's. I'm going to try and set up an appointment to go visit their farms. I'm thinking of buying into one vegetable CSA and one for fresh meat (beef, lamb, pork, chicken, turkey)


If you ask me...I think the current state of food puts taste as an after thought. We aren't all as lucky as Shel ;) (although he has made me a better shopper, thanks Shel)

Dan

>I used to live right over The Marine Park Bridge opposite Floyd Bennet in Breezy Point. Small World<

East Flatbush, just off Schenectady Ave.

There's only 200 people in the world, and pretty soon you meet everybody.

>Back then taste was just a by-product of buying from honest local farmers.........

Of course now your seeing some grocery stores dedicate sections to "fresh" and organic foods.<

Well, Gone Fishin, you've really pushed some buttons here.

You dismiss an entire change in the agricultural and food distribution practices of this country by saying taste was merely a by-product. Come on. You can't possibly believe that?

The loss of taste is a result of two things: The hybridazation of Americas (indeed, much of the world's) food crops after WW II, and the emergence and growth of factory farms.

Until then food distribution was not only local, it consisted of ripe produce. Truck farmers would bring their crops into the city to be sold. It was harvested at most the day before, and was ready to eat.

With the emergence of the factory farms the food distribution system was changed. Tomatoes that used to be vine ripened and then delivered would be rotting by the time they were delivered from, say, Florida to the West Coast. So other methods were developed. In the case of tomatoes, they are havested green, kept in cold storage, then gassed just before deliver so they turn color.

This also meant that hybrids were developed using characteristics determined by the food distribution system. They had to have uniformity of size, color, and shape. They had to have tough skins to withstand the rigors of truck, train, and ship transportation. The had to be disease resistent. Etc. etc. etc. Nowhere in that long list of desired characteristics does flavor play a role.

Thus, when a hybrid does have flavor it sneaks in by accidend. But you can't tell, anyway, because flavor is a function of ripeness, and nothing you buy in a supermarket is ripe.

Concurrent with that came the increase in home storage ability. Fridges grew to the point where once-a-week shopping became the norm. That, too, had an effect on the produce, because it had to not only go through the food distribution system, it had to remain, more-or-less, palatable for the days it would sit in the home fridge.

Meanwhile, the economies of scale being realized by factory farms were being applied to other food disciplines. Downtowns were being replaced by exurban shopping plazas and malls. The butcher, baker, and candlestick maker all but disappeared. Supermarkets sold those products, in prepackaged amounts, using the cuts most likely to contribute to the bottom line.

At the same time, two other influences were growing by leaps and bounds. One was the in-store convenience product. This all started with Clarance Birdseye, who, I'm sure, never dreamed how far his idea would go. The other, of course, was the emergence of fast-food restaurants. here, again, flavor was the last thing on anybody's mind.

All of these factors, and others, were going on concurrently, building slowely over half a century.

Now there's a widespread desire to recapture those days. But it's been two plus generations, and people, by and large, don't know how. So they jump on trends and movements, hoping that somewhere along the line flavor and nutrition will return.

Reversing the trends of that half century, unfortunately, will take more than a locovore movement, more than a faddish acceptance of "organics," more than a bunch of activists blathering about buying locally when they don't understand the ramifications of that at all.

You may not know this, Gone Fishin', but supermarket organic produce is, by and large, a shuck. You may as well buy the standard stuff and save the unjustified premiums they charge.

When the word "organic" is uttered, we all have a mental image of the source: A small, diverse grower who sees him/herself as a steward of the land, lovingly growing vegetables without the use of artificial chemicals, harvesting them when they're at their peak, and delivering them to the consumer.

True organic growers live by one credo: If you want to grow good plants you first grow good soil.

Supermarket organics couldn't be further from that image. They are grown by the organic divisions of factory farms, using essentially the same tecnhniques as conventional produce.

It's grown on a monocultural basis. They depend on massive infusions of pesticides, insecticides, fungicides, and fertilizers, rather than building good soil. They use gigantic, heavy equipment which merely compacts the soil. The produce is harvested when unripe. And varieties are choosen based on their ability to withstand the rigors of the food transportation system.

The amendments they use are legally organic. But that's because Monsanto et als virtually wrote the federal organic certification program. Thus, there are many items included that nobody in their right mind would consider to be "organic." And, among those that are, they reach for the ones that do the most damage. After all, why use a natural insecticide that targets pests when you can use one that kills every insect in the field?

And, when you examine the organics class by class, what you find is that they are harvested, transported, cold stored, and manipulated exactly the same way as conventional produce, starting with varieties that have to flavor anyway.

The long and the short of it is that supermarket organics are strictly a marketing ploy. And anyone who buys them is wasting their money.

Hmmm...

Hi KYH,

I suppose I didn't word that the greatest. What I was trying to say is that I believe that the American consumers bought food which tasted good from honest local farmers. But when the consumer bought good local produce taste was not of their main concern.

I believe that both price and convenience rank as more important to many of the consumers in the US. This is why I wrote that taste was a by-product when many people bought produce. They were supplied produce that was good, but that wasn't their concern.

Because taste wasn't one of the main concerns of the consumer, I believe that is the key factor that left the market open for lots of money to be made. Each time we, consumers, have been given a choice we seem to accept a step down in taste for a lower price, more uniform looking product, more convenience, etc...we seldom choose taste.

I believe that the reason these big companies have done so well is because we allowed them to. We started with quality produce and we accepted every step away from that. I still don't think taste was ever a major concern of consumers over the years. I think that the times most consumers bring good taste in their homes is by accident.

Sorry about those buttons :o

dan

That's my problem with organics in stores. This is also why I don't care to buy organic when it's from a grocery store. But...there's a big market out there for people to buy organic food. My problem is is that many of these people are happy buying their organic produce from the stores for a higher price for some reason. Maybe because they feel good when they buy organic produce...it sure isn't because it tastes so much better (in most cases).

So again...even in the organic sections of the grocery store we are putting taste aside for other priorities. Yep...this ticks me off.

What gets me going as well is that these same deceptive practices are being used at the farmers markets I'm going to as well.

For me...my last hope of getting a decent product is going to be with the CSA's. I plan to go visit the farms and see if I like what I see, hear and taste.

take care,
dan

That's been my point. Except I think that we (the consumer) have been a large reason for the decline. Each time we accepted an inferior product. Even when your talking about "organics" we (consumers) will pay the high price without receiving a good product. Which is why I still think that taste is not a main concern of the consumer of the past, present or future.

But I think we can make progress if we start to educate the next consumers. We need to educate our children on what food taste like and how plant a garden. Perhaps they'll be better consumers than we have been. Perhaps they'll demand that their produce taste as good as it once did.

dan

The thread started off with the FDA's weird new rules, and I pointed out that these new rules favour the food processors. (although the "seasoned fries vs regular fries throws a wrench into my thesis a bit.)

And while KY makes some very good points about food, consumers, and consumer habits, one of the things that didn't get mentioned was advertising. One of the biggest things to happen after WWII was television, and with it, the explosion of the advertising industry....

Now who spends more on advertising, Dole or Kraft? Coke? Hormel? The processors and retailers spend the mega bucks on advertising, and advertising does have a huge influence on purchasing; heck if it didn't advertising would be a non-industry and people would actually buy what they needed, not what they were told to.

So, to view these new rules with a very pessimistic, "they're out to get us" attitude, the new rules favour the large food processors. If the large processors don't have to say if their salmon comes from a country that likes to farm it's salmon, likes to poison it's milk powder with melamine, likes to make it's salsa with GM tomatoes, or it's pasta with GM wheat or soya or whatever.

Caveat emporium, they're out to getcha......