New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Milk Expiration

post #1 of 23
Thread Starter 
Does anyone know why organic milk has a very long shelf life while regular milk only lasts a week?

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

Reply

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

Reply
post #2 of 23
I don't get your question entirely. Organic milk is usually pasteurized as well. You may be seeing ultra-pasteurized organic milk?

And on milk, those are usually sell by dates, not expiration. It's usually good for about a week after those dates.
Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
Reply
Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
Reply
post #3 of 23
Yes, the organic milk I see in the stores is all ultrapasteurized. Feh. (imo)
"Notorious stickler" -- The New York Times, January 4, 2004
Reply
"Notorious stickler" -- The New York Times, January 4, 2004
Reply
post #4 of 23
Maybe organic gets from farm to market more quickly?
post #5 of 23
At least with some producers/distributors in Vermont, this is exactly the case. Regular pasteurization, but the organic gets to the shelf very rapidly indeed, whereas the normal milk can be in transit for a disconcertingly long time. I would, however, check to see whether the organic milk you're buying might be ultra-pasteurized, which I believe has to be marked. If it's getting to the shelf so fast, it must be coming from a pretty local farm or farm collective, which is probably also marked -- such farmers like advertising, because they need every dime. (Do you have any idea what a regular dairy farmer gets for a gallon of milk? Frightening: the prices to consumers go up, the fees to farmers go down....)
post #6 of 23
Thread Starter 
Ok maybe I dont know much about the dairy industry. What is pasteurized milk exactly? Growing up on a farm my Grandmother would milk the goat and then boil the fresh milk immediately. (On a side note she would then skim the thick film off the top, put it into a jar, and let it turn into a very stinky butter Kretans are well known for.) I thought boiling the milk was pasteurization. Why is this not liked?

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

Reply

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

Reply
post #7 of 23
Regular pasteurized is 63'c for 30 minutes or 71'c for 15 seconds Ultra is 140'c for 2 seconds and then extremely rapidly chilled, within seconds if possible then into sterile boxes. Ultra is usually processed with live steam wrather then boiling so it does not taste bitter when heated that high. Regular does not kill all bacteria, that is why it does sour. Ultra kills all. and can even be stored without refrigeration. Both have same qualities when t comes to recipes.:chef:
CHEFED
Reply
CHEFED
Reply
post #8 of 23
It's not really an option, except for the (to my mind rather weird) little movement of people who insist on raw milk. Last I heard, raw milk was illegal to be packaged and sold for human consumption almost everywhere in the United States. The absolute enforcement of pasteurization, you see, was one of the great triumphs in the great war against typhoid. So the choice is between pasteurized and ultra-pasteurized.

Many people find that the latter has a less complex taste. To put it the other way around, many find that ultra-pasteurized milk and cream don't taste like very much. If you put European-style cultured butter and cream and such on one end of a spectrum, with lots of flavor, ultra-pasteurized would be on the opposite end, and regular pasteurized would be somewhere in the middle.

Personally, I haven't compared enough to have an opinion.
post #9 of 23
Having never used any milk other than pasteurized, I'm quite comfortable with the status quo. When you consider that such foods as fresh spinach, tomatoes and lettuce have been "recalled" in the recent past because of possible salmonella contamination, and these foods cannot be "sterilized" [although I wonder what chemicals they do use to clean them before market?]...pasteurized milk is for me, one less thing to worry about. My grandfather died of TB, which the doctors believed he got from drinking unpasteurized milk from unvaccinated cows. It was a long, unpleasant and preventable death.
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
post #10 of 23
Milk takes on a cooked taste when pasteurized and some flavors are lost. The higher the heat used, the more the flavor changes. To me, the flavor is sweeter in pasteurized milk while also being blander and more one dimensional.

Ultra/super pasteurized milk loses even more flavor. Thus Suzanne's feh comment. Sadly, most cream now a days is ultra pasteurized and the cream does suffer for it in fresh use applications.

I disagree with Ed. I think ultra pasteurized dairy does cook differently. I think it is more resistant to curdling and is less trouble to reduce. It's not a Huge difference, but enough that I actually prefer it. I don't think the flavor loss is notable in most cooked goods as the milk is getting cooked anyway and consequently goes through the same flavor shifts.

My wife grew up on a dairy farm and has strong opinions on milk. She strongly prefers whole milk and while recognizing the safety of pasteurization thinks that it damages the flavor.

Phil
Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
Reply
Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
Reply
post #11 of 23
Most of the time leafy vegetables are cleaned in a solution of Lactic Acid and water with some food safe Quatinary solution mixed in for good measure. The vegetables are either spray washed or run thru a shoot that submerges them and cleans off most of the dirt and bacteria, key being MOST. You should still wash all your veggies before you consume them.

As for Milk what Chef Ed said above is the difference and now they are doing what is called UHT or Ultra High Temp Pasteurization. It is pastuerized under EXTREMELY high temps, chilled immediately via chilled lines and packaged without ever seeing the outside air. It is shelf stable and tastes like pastuerized milk. Its basically Parmalat.
Taste: The sensation derived from food, as interpreted thru the tongue to brain sensory system.
Flavor: The overall impression combining taste, odor, mouthfeel and trigeminal perception.
Reply
Taste: The sensation derived from food, as interpreted thru the tongue to brain sensory system.
Flavor: The overall impression combining taste, odor, mouthfeel and trigeminal perception.
Reply
post #12 of 23
Thanks, chefhow. I typically put my fresh produce through a vinegar & water bath as soon as I get them home. Vinegar is a natural astringent, and it rinses off with no aftertaste. I've seen those "veggie-clean" products in the produce sections, but they are quite pricey and I don't think they do anybetter than plain white cheap vinegar. I buy it by the gallon.
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
"The pressure's on...let's cook something!"
 
Reply
post #13 of 23
In reality you can make your own vege -clean on melons or hard skinned fruits and veges by putting hydrogen peroxide in a spray bottle with water, As chefhow says lactic and in some cases malic acid is used.
I worked in a very large place up North where before food was processed in a VCM or large blenders.sodium hypochloride(CLOROX) and cold water was poured into them and then drained out and then the processing of food began.
For those of you who think all these chemicals are bad. Keep in mind that up until a few years ago canned pears, peaches, plums etc .were peeled with LYE, not just with little old ladies with peelers.

PS ..Vinegar purchased in a supermarket is only 5% at most,(Heinz) store brands less, therefore will not kill bacteria or mold , it will slow it down but dont depend on it. Pure vinegar would probably burn holes through things.:lol:
CHEFED
Reply
CHEFED
Reply
post #14 of 23
Cooking grade white vinegar sold at retail in the United States is always a 5% solution, no matter whose brand it carries. Other kinds of vinegar can be greater or lesser. For instance, a quick check of some of my vinegars reveals: Rice Vinegar, 4.2%, Sherry Vinegar, 8%, Balsamic, 6%, White Wine, 6%.

Agricultural grade vinegar (the kind USDA recomends for weed control, for instance) is 20%.

A 2 1/2% solution is acidic enough to create an environment that will not support bacterial growth. That's why you can use a boiling-water bath process for canning. While there's obviously more involved than just the acidity, I wouldn't feel the least bit uncomfortable about Amazing Grace's water/vinegar mixture as a safe and effective wash for veggies.
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #15 of 23
I have seen and only recently 4% white distilled vinegar sold to restaurants under the distributors own label thats why its cheaper.(wholesale)
And as far as for home use 2.5% is ok, for spraying foods and veges. But for wholesale or interstate applications it is not.
Again what is done home and what is done commercialy are two horses of two diffirent colors.
Every day in our food service facilities, our tables both wood and stainless have to be scrubbed down with a .05 clorox solution, and if interstate in some cases live steam. We also have to have stainless steel sheets or seamless plastic on our walls , concrete or tile floors ,whereas home you dont,. I have to have 3 buckets, 1 with detergent 2 with hypochloride solution near my food processing area, in a home kitchen you dont have to. I cant even have kitchen towls, after I wipe a table it goes into the clorox bucket. Home you dont but you should. I am governed by the county and state health department codes and inspections, home you are not.:chef:
CHEFED
Reply
CHEFED
Reply
post #16 of 23
Thing is, Ed, you can't change horses in midstream and then tell us we're in a different race---although that's often how you argue.

This entire thread has had a distinctly consumer/home cook orientation. And you, yourself, said:

"Vinegar purchased in a supermarket is only 5% at most,(Heinz) store brands less, "

What you buy from a wholesale distributor has nothing to do with what home cooks buy in the supermarket. And there, by law, white vinegar has to be 5%. So why don't you show me one of those store brands that are less than 5%---you'll make me and my lawyer very happy.
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #17 of 23
Technically KY, table or white vinegar has an acetic acid range between 4-8%. It is typically 5% but that isnt the law. Here it is from the CFR.

The acetic acid concentration typically ranges from 4 to 8 percent by volume for table vinegar(typically 5%) and higher concentrations for pickling (up to 18%)
Taste: The sensation derived from food, as interpreted thru the tongue to brain sensory system.
Flavor: The overall impression combining taste, odor, mouthfeel and trigeminal perception.
Reply
Taste: The sensation derived from food, as interpreted thru the tongue to brain sensory system.
Flavor: The overall impression combining taste, odor, mouthfeel and trigeminal perception.
Reply
post #18 of 23
Thanks Chef How I knew I saw this somewhere but could not find where. Problem with some of these questions is that what pertains to the home does not pertain to industry and you and I dont write about these things, we do them on daily basis.:chef:
CHEFED
Reply
CHEFED
Reply
post #19 of 23
Thread Starter 
What's with everyone today? Is it a full moon or something?

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

Reply

"You are what you eat, so don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake."

Reply
post #20 of 23
"you and I dont write about these things, we do them on daily basis."

Right, Ed. And that automatically makes you an all-knowing expert, right? And those of us who write about things can’t possibly know what we’re talking about.

As it turns out, there are several aspects of this that you know-all-about-it-just-because-we-use-it boys should consider.

FDA requires that any product called “vinegar” contain at least 4% acidity. There are currently no specific standards of identity for vinegar, but FDA has what are called “compliance policy guides.” These have the force of law, even if not laws per se. And that’s why supermarket white vinegar is always 5%. Supermarket vinegar, Ed. Not what you may or may not use on the job, but the stuff us stupid writers buy at Kroger.

And, again, you’re the one who claimed supermarket brands are less than 5%. But you have yet to provide even one example; preferring to hide behind your so-called expertise as a professional kitchen worker rather than ever admit that maybe, just possibly, there was something that Ed was mistaken about.

It might also interest you to know that, again according to the FDA, vinegar and acetic acid are not, repeat, not the same thing. And if you use diluted acetic acid and label it vinegar you are breaking the law.

Granted, the FDA people, like writers, probably don’t know anything because, after all, they don’t handle the stuff every day like you do. But according to their rules, it is “misleading if the labeling of a food in which acetic acid is used implies or suggests that the food contains or was prepared with vinegar. Acidic acid should not be substituted for vinegar in pickled foods, which consumers customarily expect to be prepared with vinegar.”

So, according to those writer types over at FDA, vinegar and acetic acid are not the same things after all. Except for you guys who use them every day, and so know better.

Meanwhile, the folks at The Vinegar Institute suggest the reason behind the FDA rules:

Although acetic acid is the primary constituent of vinegar aside from water, acetic acid is not vinegar. Vinegar contains many vitamins and other compounds not found in acetic acid such as riboflavin, Vitamin B-1 and mineral salts from the starting material that impart vinegar with its distinct flavor. “

So let's look at this on balance. Both the FDA and the industry group involved with a product say A. But the people who use the product on a daily basis say B.

Just who are we dumb writers, who, after all, know nothing on our own, supposed to believe?
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
They have taken the oath of the brother in blood, in leavened bread and salt. Rudyard Kipling
Reply
post #21 of 23
Actually Chef Ed I do write about them almost daily. I'm a chef turned food scientist, so I use them in application and write about them in formulation almost daily.

What I think is being overlooked is that white distilled vinegar that is used all over the place is generally50 grain or 5% but can be anywhere from 4-8%(I have a bottle of 120 grain on my bench for salad dressing work I am doing for a customer) and that vinegar is not acetic acid bit acetic acid is the main compnent in vinegar.
Taste: The sensation derived from food, as interpreted thru the tongue to brain sensory system.
Flavor: The overall impression combining taste, odor, mouthfeel and trigeminal perception.
Reply
Taste: The sensation derived from food, as interpreted thru the tongue to brain sensory system.
Flavor: The overall impression combining taste, odor, mouthfeel and trigeminal perception.
Reply
post #22 of 23
It's Tax season.
Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
Reply
Palace of the Brine -- "I hear the droning in the shrine of the sea monkeys." Saltair
Reply
post #23 of 23
Never said all writers were dumb, and I dont know everything. And in this day and age dont believe everything I read, in particular when it stems from government. I do stick to my guns re. the FDA as have been there and seen some of the things their people do. Also I dont have to hide behind anything at any time, do you? And if you want to compare all writers with FDA writers, thats your perogative.
CHEFED
Reply
CHEFED
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Food & Cooking