The use of the title Chef - Page 5

No, a cook is a cook is a cook, and we have the exact same problem here in N.America.

"My husband is a gourmet Chef"

"Oh, where does he work?"

"Oh, he's a fireman, but he cooks the most wonderfull meals".

Continental Europe is a different story.  During "My Time" ('80's and '90's) when you picked up a telephone directory, the person's name, address AND profession would be listed.  Either you were a cook, or you were listed as "Eidgenosische Diplomierte KuechenChef", a title that takes a minimum of 3 years prepatory courses, and a failure rate of 50%.  Cooks proudly call theselves cooks, and non-professionals call themselves "Hobby Cooks".  No one dares call themselves a Chef unless they have a brigade to work under them.  Apprentices work 3 years before they get their papers, and when they get their papers, they have achieved the title of "Cook". I did mine in Switzerland, which has 4 national languages

and in each language on that document, it states that I succesfully completed my apprenticeship as "Cook".

Many of my cousins have thier own business in Europe, and thier employees refer to them as "Der Chef", and this has nothing to do with cooking, Chef simply means the Boss.

Language is like philanthropy.  It's not how much you love but how much you are loved.  Gotta love Wizard of Oz philosophy, no?

In other words, individual cooks and chefs don't get to define the term.  It's a function of common usage, not technical jargon. 

The horse is out of the barn and for good or ill the term has become democratized and/or debased to include just about anyone who fires a pan in anger.   Humpty Dumpty left the building and not all the king's horses and men can restore the highly restrictive meaning that so many long time long-time professionals seem to yearn for.

The etymology of the word is just "boss," and nothing more.  In the days before restaurants became very popular and wealthy people dined in one another's homes, they maintained large kitchen staffs.  The chef was the boss of a French kitchen staff.  In England, staffs were less kitchen-centric and the same person was called "Cook." 

Near the end of the XIXth Century, at around the same time "fine dining" out of the home became popular, Escoffier "invented" the brigade system for large hotel kitchens (which, by the way were greatly responsible for the change).  It was based on his experience in the military, and just as in the army a kitchen included cooks (culinaires) of a number of ranks -- including several degrees of "chef."  The English are naturally great Francophiles and when Escoffier Frenchified English dining, they embraced the terms.  

Like food, language changes.  Just as not a lot of people still dress poached fish in stiff Parisiennes (all the rage in 1919), the terminology has evolved too.  You don't have to like it, but at some point you're going to strike people as a little meshugge or certainly old-fogeyish when you stick your fingers in your ears every time someone uses the word in a way you don't like. 

And yes, television has done a great deal to debase the term -- just as it's done a great deal alter meany other meanings.  It should come as no surprise.  That's what the "mass" in "mass media" means.  That's democracy for you. 

On a personal note, because of the limits of my experience I was always extremely uncomfortable with applying the term to myself.  But since people I respect as accomplished chefs in their own right call me "chef," it's too much like false modesty to resist.  So, somewhat like a chef d'partie I accept it for limited purposes.

And the ragging on Julia Child is a lot more interesting.  What did she do?  She only changed the way we all think about food, and managed one of the most infulential kitchen of the twentieth century.  But since she couldn't make Chicken ala King from memory, once dropped a towel on the floor, and never catered for thousands at a time, she was (a) no chef; and (b) unworthy to work in certain high-end cafeterias. 

Well, Hallelujah for that.

BDL

Ha ha yes, my husband thinks he’s a chef, and when he sees you in your white jacket he will want to bore you senseless about how he makes a kick@ss tiramisu at the fire station.

Everything has evolved since the brigade system was introduced but we still hold on to parts of the tradition. I don’t know why we do, it’s just the way it is, we still have a monarchy and most of us want to get married in a church. But the fact is, very few are religious or indeed royalists.

I was surprised when I entered the industry just ten years ago that I could hold my own in a professional kitchen with no formal training. When I started applying for jobs I was very rarely asked for qualifications, I’m not saying that it didn’t happen but when it did and I had to admit that I was self taught it was not a big deal, they were more interested in my CV (or resume).

People called me chef from day one and I was also uncomfortable with it, but as long as I could wow the diners with my food and I was doing my job well, they were none the wiser. I opened a restaurant and successfully sold it on and have worked in many kitchens since. The naysayers were gobsmacked to say the least.

In the modern world it is not the title that makes the chef, it is the chef that makes the title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze 

Language is like philanthropy.  It's not how much you love but how much you are loved.  Gotta love Wizard of Oz philosophy, no?

 

In other words, individual cooks and chefs don't get to define the term.  It's a function of common usage, not technical jargon. 

 

The horse is out of the barn and for good or ill the term has become democratized and/or debased to include just about anyone who fires a pan in anger.   Humpty Dumpty left the building and not all the king's horses and men can restore the highly restrictive meaning that so many long time long-time professionals seem to yearn for.

 

The etymology of the word is just "boss," and nothing more.  In the days before restaurants became very popular and wealthy people dined in one another's homes, they maintained large kitchen staffs.  The chef was the boss of a French kitchen staff.  In England, staffs were less kitchen-centric and the same person was called "Cook." 

 

Near the end of the XIXth Century, at around the same time "fine dining" out of the home became popular, Escoffier "invented" the brigade system for large hotel kitchens (which, by the way were greatly responsible for the change).  It was based on his experience in the military, and just as in the army a kitchen included cooks (culinaires) of a number of ranks -- including several degrees of "chef."  The English are naturally great Francophiles and when Escoffier Frenchified English dining, they embraced the terms.  

 

Like food, language changes.  Just as not a lot of people still dress poached fish in stiff Parisiennes (all the rage in 1919), the terminology has evolved too.  You don't have to like it, but at some point you're going to strike people as a little meshugge or certainly old-fogeyish when you stick your fingers in your ears every time someone uses the word in a way you don't like. 

 

And yes, television has done a great deal to debase the term -- just as it's done a great deal alter meany other meanings.  It should come as no surprise.  That's what the "mass" in "mass media" means.  That's democracy for you. 

 

On a personal note, because of the limits of my experience I was always extremely uncomfortable with applying the term to myself.  But since people I respect as accomplished chefs in their own right call me "chef," it's too much like false modesty to resist.  So, somewhat like a chef d'partie I accept it for limited purposes.

 

And the ragging on Julia Child is a lot more interesting.  What did she do?  She only changed the way we all think about food, and managed one of the most infulential kitchen of the twentieth century.  But since she couldn't make Chicken ala King from memory, once dropped a towel on the floor, and never catered for thousands at a time, she was (a) no chef; and (b) unworthy to work in certain high-end cafeterias. 

 

Well, Hallelujah for that.

 

BDL

The ragging on Julia Child hapenns because it needs to be said. I was watching the new "Cooking Channel" last night (a PBS rerun)  for a little while and she was on and couldn't even poach an egg  properly after three attempts and even burned the home made english muffins. If PBS had made such a mockery of the medical profession they would have been sued. Chef Boyardee did a better job of making people aware of our profession, even if the pasta is overcooked by Italian standards, that's how "us kids" learned to eat pasta. and even my kids didn't like pasta al dente, they would say it isn't cooked enough. To give such a person praise for making our profession more noticeible by the public is like saying Dotor Dolittle is a heart surgeon.   P.S. What kitchen did she manage besides "the 'KQED'studio set"?
 

Julia never made any false claims to fame or statements.

She did change the Art of French Cooking for women in America  She did make mistakes on live t.v. and did not have them edited later when she could. I love her honesty. That was the beauty of Julia Child.

Let her Rest in Peace

Gypsy

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsy2727 

Julia never made any false claims to fame or statements.

 

She did change the Art of French Cooking for women in America  She did make mistakes on live t.v. and did not have them edited later when she could. I love her honesty. That was the beauty of Julia Child.

 

 

Let her Rest in Peace

 

Gypsy

I believe she also made mention publicly that she couldn't really cook (I remember a video clip, but can't remember the source).  It was the love of food, not her cooking ability, that advanced her "career".  That career was very much marketing the idea of good food and how to make it.
 

Originally Posted by Free Rider 

That's going to require a citation.  It appears to me be false on its face.

While she never managed a hotel's night room-service kitchen, worked the turn and burn at Applebee's, or whatever qualifies for "real" experience in your eyes, she was a Grande Diplomee of LCB in Paris and a successful, professional cooking teacher for several years in Paris before collaborating on Mastering the Art of French Cooking, and could certainly cook very well indeed.

I never ate her food, but know people who did.  No one seemed disappointed.  I was told she knew her way around a wine list pretty well too. 

She wasn't my favorite TV cooking teacher of the sixties, Graham Kerr was.  But anyone who watched The French Chef (broadcast without edits) and couldn't tell that Child was an accomplished and skillful cook is, in some way, deluded or blind.

My 2 cents,

BDL

Quote:

Originally Posted by boar_d_laze 

 

That's going to require a citation.  It appears to me be false on its face.

 

While she never managed a hotel's night room-service kitchen, worked the turn and burn at Applebee's, or whatever qualifies for "real" experience in your eyes, she was a Grande Diplomee of LCB in Paris and a successful, professional cooking teacher for several years in Paris before collaborating on Mastering the Art of French Cooking, and could certainly cook very well indeed.

Why do you choose to call me a liar?  Why do you try to characterize what qualifies for experience in my eyes when I haven't even done so?  Your attitude is rather defensive in its offensiveness.  Perhaps it's just that, as a lawyer, you are taking "adversarial" a step too far (I vaguely remember you mentioning being a lawyer some time back, but I may be wrong.  You can provide a citation one way or the other if you want).

The clip I saw was with Julia Child and, possibly, her husband.  I don't own a television set, so I was somewhere in public where sets are just about unavoidable these days.  It was on some show somewhat before she died and she was talking about her life. I have no idea what show it was or what year the clip came from.  I remember it because I see so little television and I find food topics of interest. Feel free to look the clip up yourself if you want.

She was the following the fad of her time.  It was the skill of the marketing team and not her skill at cookery that made her famous and she said as much in that clip.  Even she knew it and was willing to admit it in that clip. If you'd like to prove otherwise, you can provide a few citations where she was boasting about how great her cookery skills were.  Not books or other that an editor or producer was involved with, but something that she said sans marketing team.

I find most of your posts to be rude and condescending to everyone and really don't care to fulfill your "requirement" (not even request, but you decide to "require").  I have better things to do with my life and only read this post of yours as it quoted me.

I have more respect for a cook who self effaces than one who touts themselves highly.

Julia shouldn't be expected to say how great she is (was), others should.

And they have.

My 2 cents.

Spend it as you wish.

If I could do 1/10 of what she managed to do in her life, title " Chef " , yes.

A Tribute to Julia Child (1912-2004)

We say farewell to Julia Child, America’s first celebrity chef. Julia single-handedly changed the way we think about food in this country. With a dozen cookbooks to her credit and untold hours of delightful television shows, she demonstrated her mastery of French cooking with unparalleled grace and ease. We thank her for her contributions to the culinary world, and especially for teaching us to savor life.

Julia Child was born in Pasadena, California and graduated from Smith College in 1934. After college, she worked in publicity and advertising in New York, and during World War II, she served with the Office of Strategic Services in Washington, D.C., Ceylon (now Sri Lanka), and China. After the war, at the end of 1948, her husband Paul Child was assigned to the U.S. Information Service at The American Embassy in Paris, and Julia enrolled in Le Cordon Bleu Cooking School. There she met her two French colleagues, Simone Beck and Louisette Bertholle, and they subsequently opened a cooking school, "L'Ecole des Trois Gourmandes," which resulted in their joint book, Mastering the Art of French Cooking, published in 1961.

Julia and Paul eventually returned to the States, and after a television interview at WGBH-Boston, the station asked Julia to try out a series of TV cooking shows, and The French Chef was born on February 11, 1963. After some 200 programs on classical French cooking, she branched out into contemporary cuisine with the television series, Julia Child & Company, Julia Child & More Company, and Dinner at Julia's. In 1984, she completed six "The Way to Cook" teaching videocassettes.

Child was host for the PBS series “Cooking with Master Chefs” with a different well-known chef for each of the programs, and also for the series “Baking with Julia.” She also participated in a technique-based series with Jacques Pépin called “Julia and Jacques Cooking at Home.” The companion cookbook has been on bestseller lists throughout the U.S.

Julia Child's books include: Mastering the Art of French Cooking; The Way to Cook; The French Chef Cookbook; Baking With Julia; From Julia's Kitchen; Julia's Delicious Little Dinners; In Julia's Kitchen with Master Chefs; Julia's Casual Dinners; Julia's Menus for Special Occasions; Julia and Jacques Cooking at Home; Julia's Breakfasts, Lunches, and Suppers; and Julia's Kitchen Wisdom: Essential Techniques and Recipes from a Lifetime of Cooking.

Julia Child received honorary degrees from Boston University, Bates College, Rutgers University, Smith College, and Harvard University. She was awarded the Ordre de Merite Agricole in 1967 by the French government, and in 1967 by the French government, and in 1976 the Ordre de Mérite Nationale. She was elected a member of the Confrérie de Ceres for her work on French bread, and is a member of the American chapter of the Commandérie des Cordons Bleus de France. She was awarded two national Emmy's: in 1995 for her "Master Chefs" series and in 1997 for "Baking with Julia." In 1999, she received the Peabody Award from Public Television.

Mrs. Child was an active member of the International Association of Culinary Professionals, and a co-founder of the American Institute of Wine & Food.

Regarding Julia Child, I have a rather unique perspective.

-I have never seen her on TV

-I have never read any of her books.

Heck, I haven't even seen Meryl Streep's imitation of her.

So I have no opinion of her at all.

Yet from what I gather, the information about her tells me she can cook, and quite well.

So, is she a Chef?

Everybody has a different definition of what constitutes a "Chef".

So, going out on a limb I offer one last perspective of this definition, the opinion of probably the most important person--the employer.  Without the employer you have no job, no kitchen, no stage to shine on.

What criteria does an employer look for in a Chef?

-The food and labour costs of the applicant's previous job

-How well the Chef manages his resources

By resources, I mean the "Three":  1) Manpower, 2) Equipment, 3)Ingredients

Cooking is not listed, it is assumed.  Just as it is assumed that anyone who walks into a library or a bookstore can read.

Free Rider,

I apologize if I left the impression I thought you were a liar.  Rather, I felt and feel that you were mistaken.  Otherwise, I look forward to reading more of your contributions.

BDL

I don't understand the Julia bashing that's been taking place the past few years. Those I know personally who have expressed disdain for her, and many of the anti-Julia comments I've read, seem to be from people bearing the title "chef," but who are either unsure of themselves, or are the types who make themselves feel taller by cutting their betters off at the knees. There are many, too, who seem to feel the title "cook" is somehow denigrating.

In my stint as a culinary professional I was a cook, and proud of it.

Was Julia a chef? Not by most definitions, including her own. But so what? It is likely that nobody has had more influence on the state of cookery in America---and that includes professionals as well as home cooks. Start making a list of the top chefs who claim they wouldn't have entered the field had it not been for her. I wonder how many of the Julia bashers can claim any sort of influence beyond their own kitchens?

Among other things, she virtually invented the modern form of TV cooking show. Her show (and, let's remember, that she didn't name it, so let's not blame her for it) was directed at home cooks, and became instantly popular because it came across as real. I reckon the professionals who bash her never make mistakes; never drop a tool or a piece of food; never misread a recipe. But she did. And home cooks, who also do that, responded to her for that reason.

Beyond the show, her books, appearances, teaching venues and organizations further influenced the field in immeasuable ways.

Most of all, she made America aware that good cooking did not involve some sort of occult arts; that it was something anyone could learn to do. And that during the process you could always eat your mistakes.

I wonder, if the Julia bashers listed their accomplishments and influences, how they'd stack up against hers. My guess is they'd be found wanting.

I think that while Julia did not work in a pro kitchen she did leave her mark on how North Americans view food and cooking.   She obviously loved food and  loved to cook and she laid the groundwork for the cooking shows that followed hers.  (mind you the state of the FN today would likely repulse her as it does many of us)   She took the mystery out of making a "wow" meal and showed her readers and viewers how to do the same.  So she may have been a slob in the kitchen but let's think about it for a sec.. how many of us when we are knee deep in the weeds and the jungle is just around the corner are worried about picking up the onion bit that hit the floor or wiping the three drips of cream that are on the counter behind us?  I'd say none of us as we are too busy getting ourselves back on track at the time and we clean as soon as we can.  Does that make us any lesser people than we are?  I say not and the same goes for her.  I think though she was ahead of her time and she had to really fight to get to where she did. 

I wish my mother had been given a copy of her cookbook... my mom wasn't the best cook and trying new things was not her cup of tea but I think if she had a cookbook that explained things clearly she might have been more inventive at least as my dad would only eat beef, ham and sausages.  I hate potatoes to this day because every day growing up I had to eat mushy potatoes as that was how my dad liked them.. *bleck* 

Quote:

Originally Posted by foodpump 

Regarding Julia Child, I have a rather unique perspective.

-I have never seen her on TV

-I have never read any of her books.

 

Heck, I haven't even seen Meryl Streep's imitation of her.

 

So I have no opinion of her at all.

 

Yet from what I gather, the information about her tells me she can cook, and quite well.

 

So, is she a Chef?

 

Everybody has a different definition of what constitutes a "Chef".

 

So, going out on a limb I offer one last perspective of this definition, the opinion of probably the most important person--the employer.  Without the employer you have no job, no kitchen, no stage to shine on.

 

What criteria does an employer look for in a Chef?

-The food and labour costs of the applicant's previous job

-How well the Chef manages his resources

 

By resources, I mean the "Three":  1) Manpower, 2) Equipment, 3)Ingredients

 

Cooking is not listed, it is assumed.  Just as it is assumed that anyone who walks into a library or a bookstore can read.

Not so unique, Foodpump.  I only ever saw her on TV for that one clip that I mentioned.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer 

Was Julia a chef? Not by most definitions, including her own. But so what? It is likely that nobody has had more influence on the state of cookery in America---and that includes professionals as well as home cooks. Start making a list of the top chefs who claim they wouldn't have entered the field had it not been for her. I wonder how many of the Julia bashers can claim any sort of influence beyond their own kitchens?

 

Among other things, she virtually invented the modern form of TV cooking show. Her show (and, let's remember, that she didn't name it, so let's not blame her for it) was directed at home cooks, and became instantly popular because it came across as real. I reckon the professionals who bash her never make mistakes; never drop a tool or a piece of food; never misread a recipe. But she did. And home cooks, who also do that, responded to her for that reason.

 

Beyond the show, her books, appearances, teaching venues and organizations further influenced the field in immeasuable ways.

 

Most of all, she made America aware that good cooking did not involve some sort of occult arts; that it was something anyone could learn to do. And that during the process you could always eat your mistakes.

KYHeirloomer, 

I agree with a lot of what you say, but remember too that her marketing success (tv, books, etc) was all done with collaboration.  People seem to forget the collaborators.  It was a team effort and it's not clear that she was the driving force.  Perhaps that is why there is some backlash these days.

Certainly it was a team effort, FreeRider. But then, and now, the team is rarely acknowledged by the star.

Sandra Lee, to pick an extreme case, has a staff of 23 just to make her show happen. How many of them can you name? What about her publicists? Book packagers? Manager of her fan club? Can you come up with even one name?

So I don't think the Julia bashing has much to do with that, but for deeper reasons.

Who is Sandra Lee?  (remember, I don't own a TV set).  I guess out of the 24 on the team, I could name none, including the "star".  :D 

Edited to add:  Googled her and got a wikipedia page that calls her... a cook!  :) :)

Before these chefs became chefs, they had mothers who cooked for them and became their inspirations. So I am one of those mothers, and now I a have a daughter who became chef and a son-in-law who's also a chef.

Boar_D_Laze and KYHeirloomer, I love your diplomacy in the face of negativity--especially regarding Julia Child-- Thank you! I first cooked Julia Child's coq au vin in 8th grade for a French class banquet, and I have never looked back. My children call it purple chicken, by the way. 

From the perspective of a now non-professional cook: Is there joy in the cooking/creating/eating? I get great joy and satisfaction from feeding others amazing food....I would hate to have that joy taken away, but I do recall the smell of chocolate becoming nauseating after 500 or so truffles on a wedding cake.....

Mamang6, Thank you for your fresh perspective.  My children are not old enough to be professional anythings, but they do enjoy a wide variety of really good food....fresh peach pie in a shortbread crust,  crisp fried okra, buttery stone crab claws and garlicky escargot are a few favorites--My son was a two year old brie eater. Perhaps he will be a chef. Maybe the people who are non-professional yet inspirational cooks should start a new thread? 

Have a beautiful and delicious day! 

Julia Child failed the LCB exam the first time she took it.

Please don't forget her collaborators (not including her husband and book illustrator)  Louisette Bertholle and Simone Beck.

Personally, I don't care either way about Julia Child as she had no effect on my life, my cooking or anything,  I have never read her books, used her recipes or watched her cooking show.  I just find it curious that so many want to call her some sort of goddess of the kitchen when she is obviously just, well, normal.  Better than Rachel Ray, I'm sure, but normal.  Who knows what would have happened without her apparently forgotten and unacknowledged collaborators (is that because Americans are loathe to applaud a French person, but will put the American on a pedestal???).  Marketing to the American requires an American?

As with everything, balance.  Idolizing a person will lead to a balance in terms of negative facts being presented.

Originally Posted by Free Rider 

If you never "read her books, used her recipes or watched her cooking show" how can you judge her as "just, well normal."

Regarding your own cooking, what's your professional background?

Also, regarding your own cooking, how is it possible to cook in the modern French style without being in some way influenced by Child?  It's like saying you're not influenced by Escoffier, Pellaprat, Pierre Franey, Michele Guerard, Paul Bocuse, or Alice Waters (who can't cook a lick) -- even if you don't realize it, it's almost impossible to be completely free of their respective and collective influence. 

BDL

Oh Julia is probably rolling in her grave laughing at all the attention she is receiving!

Julia was not an attention seeker.

Julia wanted people to be informed and not be shy to cook.

I know from actually reading and owning quite a few of her books that she was of the belief to be well informed before commenting or striking an opinion .Which she always did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Rider 
Better than Rachel Ray, I'm sure, but normal. ...

Hm, interesting observation from one who states "(remember, I don't own a TV set)" in a previous post to this thread.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeteMcCracken 

Hm, interesting observation from one who states "(remember, I don't own a TV set)" in a previous post to this thread.
 

I've read this forum and have seen what has been posted about Rachel Ray.  I've also heard it from others.  Would you like to come over to my house to check the veracity of my statement?  One is often better informed without a TV than with one.

So, are you saying you formulate your opinions based on what others think? How sad!

Quote:

Originally Posted by KYHeirloomer 

So, are you saying you formulate your opinions based on what others think? How sad!

Are you saying the opinions of the chefs and cooks on this forum are worthless?  How sad!

PS How about attacking Foodpump for not reading, watching and glorifying Julia Child?  How dare I say anything negative about the American Julia Child?  For goodness sake, get over yourselves.  She got over herself and that has been confirmed by even Gypsy, who states that Julia Child didn't want attention and wanted cooking to be accessible.  To make it accessible, it has to be done by someone not absolutely perfect.

Btw, KYH, does the TV tell you what to think?  Really.

I guess this site is not tolerant of non-idolizing opinions of the precious TV idols.  Unless, of course, it's what the befuddled masses are on about.  Can't be the dissenting opinion, I suppose.

Hey folks, it's time to pull down your pants and slide on the ice "M.A.S.H." Relax.Think about the history of music. It may help put this thread into perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cape chef 

Hey folks, it's time to pull down your pants and slide on the ice "M.A.S.H." Relax.Think about the history of music. It may help put this thread into perspective.

LMAO this is so funny. What does M.A.S.H. mean?
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazza 

LMAO this is so funny. What does M.A.S.H. mean?
 

M.A.S.H. : Mobile Army Surgical Hospital  I don't think it has anything to do with this thread   ( Sure does sound cool though ) ...But I do think that was  Cape Chefs  point