What's your take on these electric knife sharpeners? - Page 2

Andy, my intent was not to hijack or belittle the OP's question or views. I think the discussion touches on ideas not in evidence.

To me, the discussion of a Chef's Choice is like asking, "Why is a Mustang better than Camaro?" It makes the assumption that one is clearly better before the discussion begins.

Way before the specifiics of this conversation picked up speed we should have discussed if mechanized eqquipment is ever better from jump street.

To a young chef or culinary student I think this is a very important viewpoint. If you've been around the block and know the risks, that's a different story.

I understand what you're saying Chico, and your passion and care is something that adds value to a thread which I personally very much appreciate and enjoy. :cool:

Just to return to where this started:
The fundamental questions, then, are as follows.

1. Is there an electric knife sharpener that will do what Mezzaluna wants serviceably?

2. Is there another solution that will be superior, easy to use, and is NOT based on a set of sharpening stones?

3. Is there some reason to convince Mezzaluna to discard the self-imposed limitation on stones?

My read of this thread (and many others) is:

1. Yes. Chef's Choice. BDL has given model suggestions, e.g. the 1520.

2. Sort of. The EdgePro is basically a set of stones with a rod guide, but it may well not have the issues that Mezzaluna objects to about a set of stones. It's pretty easy to use, and fairly pricey.

3. No. Sure, if you want perfect edges to your precise specifications, you're going to have to do something different from what Mezzaluna wants, but what Mezzaluna asks for is not perfect edges to precise specifications.

Chico, you keep pointing to perfection: the perfect fugubiki and all that. I respect your skill and your trade, but it's not at stake here. Mezzaluna is, from my impression of other threads, not totally insane, and not going to cut fugu. Besides, by the time the fugu gets to the fugubiki, it's totally safe anyway: your life is only on the line when the deba is out, and after that it's just a question of cutting a very tough-fleshed fish paper-thin. The quality of the edge doesn't seriously enter the safety equation: it's about perfect texture, and that's all. Which is not to say it doesn't matter, but it does not in fact matter a lick for 99% of Western culinary adventures, including haute cuisine, and it certainly doesn't matter for 99+% of Western home cooks however adventurous and sophisticated.

Of course, "doesn't matter" does not mean "something to ignore." It means that if you don't wish to get into these questions, you don't have to. If like BDL or me or so many others here and at Fred's, you want to play with knives and edges and stones and stuff, of course it's important, even if probably it doesn't really matter objectively. But Mezzaluna has stated limitations, and I take it that the limit on stones is precisely this: we're not talking about a knife hobbyist lunatic, but someone who wants decent, serviceable edges with minimal fuss and expense.

If the OP wants an electric sharpener that doesn't use stones, then perhaps the ideal purchase might be a 30x1" Harbor Freight grinder with a few decent belts. With minimal practice you can get very good edges that way, and the whole investment would be less than you'd pay for the Chef's Choice.

First, To Andydude, thanks for understanding the overall view. I have been desperately trying to parse my verbiage to show another point of view in a non-confrontational manner. On a topic such as this amid so many other professionals a debate should be spirited but never angry. I hope I uphold that ideal.

I understand. In many ways I do not expect a chef or culinary student to immediate jump from a used Dexter-Russell to the top of the line Hattori. But nor do I think we shouldn't evolve and embrace other courses of action.

I usually have a few "test mules" with me in my travels. You should see the looks when I offer, "Here, try this." As I've stated, a student who moonlights at our local Chinese restaurant reports that his entire class could benefit from better and sharper knives. (To this, I don't think they were taught how to sharpen on their own.)

I believe these habits are carried into their professional lives.

As a poor student who finally got his first job, do you remember the first decent pair of winter style boots you purchased?

BTW, did you ever get to borrow a properly prepared sashimi?

Sorry, I honestly don't understand the question. Can you rephrase?

From your past posts I believe that you have seen some of the finest Japanese knives produced.

Did you ever "put one to the test." And by that I mean to include such a knife in your daily chores so that it becomes familiar to your style and duties.

Certainly not. I'm not made of money, nor do I believe I have anything to gain by going up-market from where my knife collection already stands -- which is passably high by most standards.

I understand. In speaking with you it come to my attention that not all of our members may understand why I discuss in the manner we share. To that end, I just posted my credentials and beliefs.

Chris, I hope you don't mind but I'd like to pick your brain from time to time. I have never been to Japan, I just interview my clients.

What does the term "special bevels" mean in this context? Anything other than 50/50 or a single bevel? Seems to me that many of the most popular Japanese style gyutos sold in the US have asymmetrical bevels. Does that mean they would not work in a Chef's Choice?

Yo Charlie,

Given the state of the short term memory, asking for an explanation of what I was thinking two months ago is a bit problematic.

But...

I was probably thinking of things like hamaguri and convex bevels.

Yes. I mean no. I mean yes. The syntax is confusing. Whatever.

Any given Chef's Choice ("CC") will only create, repair, and profile the bevel(s) it's built to create, repair and profile.

Asymmetry isn't a problem for a Chef's Choice as long as you're talking about the proportion -- by way of examples let's 80/20 66.6/33.3, 60/40, or even a chisel edge. A CC will create that sort of asymmetry for you if you sharpen one side more than another. As with almost every other type of sharpening, you're responsible for the setting the exact degree of asymmetry by eye.

If, by asymmetry, you mean that the edge angles are not equal -- unless one of them is 0* as with a chisel edge, you're SOL. A CC will only do what it can do. In the case of the "Asian" models, that's 15*, although I think one of them might do a double bevel with the underlying angle at 15*, and the cutting angle somewhat more obtuse.

In order to sharpen a chisel edge profile (bevel on one side only, other side flat), you sharpen one side only -- then deburr by "sharpening" the other side with the finest grit slot with as few passes as necessary.

In other words, sharpening assymetrically on a CC is very much like freehand sharpening except the edge angles are predetermined. Oh, one other difference, CCs only polish to a limited level.

You seem most interested about sharpening a "gyuto" with a CC. Yes, it can and will do a good job, but not excellent, job as long as you're happy with 15* edge angles -- and/or with CC's idea of a double-bevel or "trizor" profile. The CC's limitations are: (1) No flexibility to create an ideal bevel -- say you wanted a double bevel edge angle of 15*/10* for a MAC Pro; and (2) CCs polishing capacity depends on the machine; but on their best it maxxes at the equivalent of JSI 3000# ish. That's adequate for most kitchen work, but a good "gyuto" will take and hold a significantly finer edge than that. Moreover, a good cook will appreciate the difference.

Boiled down, a capable freehand sharpener with a good kit but who chooses a CC, exchanges a bit of ultimate sharpness and profiling flexibility for a lot of convenience.

Another part of the cost/benefit consideration includes the greater likelihood a CC owner with the machine on the counter will more likely maintain a fresh edge than someone using a stone set or a rod-guide. Moreover, there are other considerations as part of the final analysis. For instance, whether and how the sharpener "steels" her (or his) knives.

And what about rod-guide sharpening systems? Well besides the fact that they're a bit of a pain to set up and take down, they're problematic around the tip -- or anywhere else there's a lot of curve. Also, a good rod-guide such as the Edge Pro Apex (Kit 4) is expensive.


So, is a CC a good choice for someone buying a "gyuto?" As always, "it depends." In this case, it depends both on the purchaser and the gyuto. In the grand scheme of methods which create the best possible edges my ranking goes:

• Freehand on stones;
• Best rod-guides (e.g., Edge Pro Kit 4);
• Other rod-guides (Lasky, Gatco); Edge-guide on stones; and Chef's Choice, and equivalent (although I don't know if there are any) machines.

Then, there's a huge drop off in edge quality and/or a huge increase in the amount of effort required to create and maintain a good edge.

In a way, it's like Plato arguing with Aristotle about whether an ideal edge is better than an actual, likely edge. I'm with Ari. The Greek expression gnothi seauton (know thyself)expresses the bottom line. It's not really a question of which method will give you the ideal edge so much as which method will give you the best edge when you actually use your knives.

At our home, we sharpen our knives (that is, I sharpen them) freehand on a four stone set, and maintain them on two rod-hones (aka steels). However, a CC is a better choice for most cooks -- especially those who aren't interested in sharpening as a separate event -- since it will be used more often, and be used appropriately.

Hope this helps,
BDL

 

"A Chef's Choice machine is an excellent choice for people who don't want to learn to sharpen and aren't knife hobbyists"

 

I recently came across this post comment from BDL and I strongly agree.  I bought the Edge Pro Pro model setup from Dan Dale many years ago.  Although I learned to use it effectively, I was never sufficiently committed to take my Wusthof and Masamoto knives down to my workshop and set up the Edge Pro to sharpen them properly on a regular basis.  I bought the Chef's Choice 325 two stage sharpener and kept it in my kitchen.  I hated to use the first stage on my Wusthof knives because it grinds away so much metal, and of course I never used the first stage on my Masamotos. 

 

So I ended up sharpening the knives once or twice a year on the Edge Pro and just using the second stropping stage of the 325 to keep the knives reasonably sharp the rest of the time.

 

I finally got tired of this routine and I just bought a three stage Chef'sChoice 15 XV.   I used the first stage to reset the angles on my Wusthofs to 15 degrees.  It only took two or three passes per edge to get a good burr.  Then I used the second stage to establish a burr on the edges of all the Wushoffs and the Masamotos.  This only took two passes per edge and it removed very little metal compared to the rather violent stage one.  Finally I stropped all of the edges with two or three passes per edge on stage three.

 

When I was done all of my knives were uniformly sharp - and I mean very sharp.  Their cutting performance is as good as I was doing on the Edge Pro.  If you look closely at the Wusthof edges that went through stage one the upper bevel is pretty ugly - you can see that some pretty heavy grinding was done to reset the edge.  But lower down the stage two bevel looks OK and the stropping area looks quite reasonable.  My guess is that it may be about 1,000 grit, certainly not a 3,000 grit polish.  However, the knives cut into my thumbnail, and the food I prepare at home, very cleanly and uniformly along the whole length of the blade.

 

The bottom line is that I am sold on the 15 XV!  I never expect to use stage one again on these knives.  I will strop as needed, right in my kitchen, and use stage two when that is needed.  I am not a sharpening hobbyist and, for me, the the Chef'sChoice 15 XV does everything I want to do.

 

I assume you mean Ben Dale, the inventor/owner of the EP system.  It's a shame you didn't stick with the system- not only will it do a much better job, it would have preserved the asymmetry of your Masamoto.  IIRC, they're ground 70/30...how did you deal with that on the Chef's Choice?

WOW. I got halfway through my reply before I realized how old this thread is. LOL @ ME. Anyway ..... I'm a hack. I use very inexpensive knives, and an inexpensive sharpener. My knives however, are always sharp with no noticeable time taken from work (10-15 seconds a few x's a night). This is my sharpener: 

 

An EDGEMAKER DELUXE - Sharpen, Hone, Polish tool. 

This particular one is new to me (3 months ago) because my "old" one was stepped on and broken into pieces. I had it since the mid-70's. This one costs +/- $20. It's always in my chef's bag along w/ my knives (< $60 for 3 knives total) and other stuff (all inexpensive but very important tools that you don't ever find when necessary at a moments notice). I've been a pro chef for a good long time. For me, my own personal tools are important to me. I'm not so concerned, other than for good old fashioned conversation, if anyone thinks they're junky, cheap, novice or amateur. I've always gotten work because of my skills, not because of the bag I carry. 

 

* Please don't take any attitude from my post today. I'm just down 0-2 in play-off picks and I've got no access to watch the game on right now. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Phaedrus,

 

Thanks for the correction on Ben's first name, sorry I got it wrong.  It's been awhile since I bought the system from him.  

 

I had already taken my Masamoto VG series knives to 15 degrees on both edges with the Edge Pro.

 

Thanks for the review 4wheel.

Your comments pretty much mirror mine in that the XV gets the knives pretty darn sharp and wow is it ever convienant.  I keep mine in my lazy susan and it literally only takes 10 seconds setup or put away.

 

Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried pulling your knives through stage 3 stropping a whole bunch of times and would you say that increases the polish?  I ask this because the manual says to make 3 pairs of pulls through stage 3 and then it goes on to say "where the finest and smoothest cuts are preferred in order to prepare smooth unmarked sections of fruits or vegetables, sharpen in stages 1 & 2 as described above and make extra pulls thru stage 3".

 

I guess I could go buy a little magnifying glass and experiment with this myself.  I was just curious if had already done so.

You can create and preserve asymmetry with a Chef's Choice, and even sharpen chisel edges.  As always, adjust asymmetry by eye and with more strokes on one side than another as needed.

 

I can get a better edge freehanding than with a CC, but I have two complete four-stone sets of bench stones (one waterstones, the other oilstones), a complete set of strops and stropping compounds, two honing rods (one steel, one glass), 50+ years of experience, and enjoy the meditative aspects of the exercise.  But like 4Wheel says, the CC edge is pretty darn good, and the machine gets used often enough that owners always have a good knife. 

 

With all due respect, carbide sharpners such as the "Edgemaker" bring a host of issues.  Among other things their edges are quite toothy and they are very tough on knives.  I'm not saying you shouldn't use them, but it is a good thing to know what's what.  Very fast, coarse sharpeners have consequences.

 

BDL. 

Something that, generally, cannot be accomplished on most hand held carbide, v-type, or roller sharpeners, correct?
 

Not all of which are generally desirable!
 

The Edgemaker is quite unlike any carbide sharpener I've ever seen.  It's actually pretty gentle on edges, although I wouldn't use one on very hard, thin edges.
 

WOW. I'm amazed at how long I've lasted. LOL. I'm still using the first chef's knife I got as a gift in 1974. I think it can be replaced today for $15.

I may sound like im here to reccomend vulkanus to everyone but really, im dazzeled by how good it is and after owning and trying several different electric and manual ones im just glad I found my charmer.. Still keeping leather strop and sharpening stones but I dont really feel i need em

Hi guys... I totally agree with BDL, I own a chef's choice 120 and has been in my posession for more than 4 years and it sharpens very well if you're not the guy that wants to shave his face with his cooking knife. I love to use the whetstone, but when I'm in a rush or my mum wants to get his knifes sharpened, I can always count on the chef's choice. It's money well spent. The first stage is very harsh, if the knife is really dull then I use it, the second stage is my favourite one and usually that's the main one that I use, and in my device I find almost useless the third one, I don't know if it has a bad stone or is just my idea, but anyway, I still like and recommend the chef's choice.

 

My two cents.

 

Best regards.

Luis