or Connect
ChefTalk.com › ChefTalk Cooking Forums › Food & Equipment Reviews › Cooking Knife Reviews › Hello. Some Question about knives
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Hello. Some Question about knives

post #1 of 79
Thread Starter 
Hello. I am new to this forum and it looks pretty nice. Been going through it and there are some interesting topics. I also hope I will be able to help aswell.

My questions is about knives. I just started working in a kitchen and I want to buy some new knives.

My problem is I dot know what are the Best brands. I dont want to buy cheap knives as I will be working at this place for 5-10 yrs for sure so I am looking for some good quality knives.

I set my eyes on these Brand Misono, Shun and Wusthof. Some also recomended Global knives.(All opinions are Welcome)

In a way price is not a problem I am seeing these as an investment.

My second problem is Which knife should I buy to start with For ex Chef/Cook's Knife, Santoku. Can you please recomend me 3 starting knives and a Brand please?

One last thing what is the difference between a Cook's Knife and a Chefs Knife?

post #2 of 79
First, I would actually use as many of the knives as you can. Talk to chefs and sous chefs. Beware of guys like me who are knife resellers.

After getting your feet wet, peruse websites like www.japanwoodworker.com to check pricing, availability, warranties, etc. Google other suppliers.

Find a kitchen supply store in your area with a working tinker/sharpener and watch him work. Does he respect your property or does he sneak off to the back room for an electric version of Jedd Clampett's grinding wheel. Oh, and buy him a tequila now then, and tell him how slim he looks on his Harley.

Examine the handle and the fit to your hand. At sometime in your career you're going to pull a twelve hour all-nighter organizing a last minute catering job. Will the "fit" cause repetitive wrist use pains?

And never push a knife until it is completely dull. Granted, your should learn to steel an edge, but know when to say "when."

As for the difference in a cook's vs a chef's knife, the only thing I can think of is in the length. A cook might be mincing ingredients for his chef, and a chef might be blocking down a larger section of meat. Hey, I just rub stuff with a wet rock...
post #3 of 79
Thread Starter 
Yeah I get ya though what knives would you recommend me. I am looking for good quality knives though I am not that much into knives so I lack knowledge.

What brand and which 3 starting knives would you recommend.

post #4 of 79
1. 10" chef's knife
2. 5" (or so) petty
3. Bread knife
4. 10" slicer (regular edge)

There are lots of very good knives in this world. The high end "German" knives are among them. I put "German" in quotes because some of them are actually made in the US, Switzerland, etc.

While the good german knives are very good, good Japanese knives are much better. This is almost entirely because Japanese manufacturers use much better steel. Ironically (pun intentional), the steel is often European -- typically from Sweden. Japanese knives are lighter, more agile (point more accurately), sharpen more easily (if you use the right stones), take a much better edge, and hold it far longer.

Before making your decision on knife brand and model, consider how you'll be sharpening the knife. As a pro, you'll do yourself a great service by learning to sharpen "freehand," on whetstones. The best, most efficient stones are Japanese waterstones.

There are a number of good Japanese brands for someone in your situation. A few brands which stand out in what seems to be your price range are Togiharu, Sakai-Takayuki Grand Cheff (extra "f" is correct), and MAC Professional.

While being far lighter and more agile than a comparable Wusthof, MAC Pro are far more robust than almost any other Japanese knife. They also have great handles -- possibly the best in the business. I recommend their 10" chef's knife and 5" petty highly; and also the 10-1/2" bread knife (MAC but not MAC Pro) extremely highly. The slicers are also nice, but considering how and when the slicer is used, you may want to choose something different -- like a Togiharu carbon.

No knife is better than its edge and all knives dull eventually. In a pro kitchen even the hardest steel won't stay sharp for more than a few days. Figure your budget so it includes at least $100 in stones.

Hope this helps,
post #5 of 79
I agree. As time and funds permit, you might include a nakiri. With people going 'green' and choosing more healthy styles of cooking, a knife designed for veggies might be a good idea.

As for sharpening, well, in that regard I'm prejudiced. For every one chef that is good with a stone there are twenty who would be better off using the best Japanese nagura for a door stop. More knives are ruined by improper care than by actual use.

In life, most people recognize Ben Dale and Ernest Emerson as the top of the heap for freehanding a knife. The other few million of us would probably make better blacksmiths. Considering that, Ben invented the Edge Pro.

To this day I use an Edge Pro to at least establish my initial uniform bevel. Obviously many Japanese knives have a differing obverse side, and it is necessary to purchase 3x9 inch waterstones.

This week I sharpened about ten kitchen knives for two food hobbyists and used the Edge Pro exclusively. (Well, I used a tad of nagura pumice, but no one knew that...)

BTW, for my money the best man to ever call himself a sharpener is Mr. Dwade Hawley. He tests prototypes for Ben Dale, modifies existing fixtures to better serve our industry, and sharpens hospital equipment.

Mr. Hawley is a member of KnifeForums, and you can private e-mail him from there by becoming a member. He's the best.
post #6 of 79
How's it goin?

Having somewhat recently started my career in the wonderful world of kitchens, I would like to suggest a few things to you.

A) three knifes you need to get are
i)8" or 10" Chefs knife , whatever your most comfortable with for general work
ii) 6" petty/ utility knife (a large paring knife or small slicer, zwilling henckles calls theirs a sandwich knife.) i use mine for small tasks like boning and chopping shallots etc
iii)a serrated bread knife. for obvious reasons. it does not need to be expensive. The generic yellow handled henckels works fine and can be cheaply replaced once dull.

Unless your chef says that you need somthing else, you can be get more stuff as you go along.

B) Any big brand name will do, just as long as you like it. Whustof, Mac, Henckels, Global etc all make awesome stuff. If it feels good to you that is the biggest thing. Also don't get stuck on a single brand. I like to hold the knives I buy before buying so I limit myself to what i can buy locally.

C) Don't get too exspensive of a knife if you are using them at work unless you are 110% sure that they will not get wrecked, borrowed, stollen etc.

D) These knives are pretty nice and won't break the bank:Amazon.com: seki magoroku . I have 3 of them and love them at work. They aren't as sharp as my Macs but then I don't care if they get dropped cause they are $40 not $120.They are made by KAI, which is the parent company of Shun.

Beyond that , I do love my Macs but i find that they are too brittle and delicate for a busy kitchen where at times anyone can grab them and use them as a screwdriver as one A-hole did to me one day. The tip of my Mac santoku is now 1/2" shorter and I am now less happy.

The European stuff is not as sharp or cool or whatever but they are solid workhorse knives and will last you virtually forever. But again, it has to be comfortable in your hand.

Also as boar_d_laze says make sure you also get some sharpening supplies, even if it is the basics like the roll sharp for the Mac knives and a ceramic steel. If you have a decent knife store or kitchen supply store in your area, most likley they will have a knife nut there more than willing to help you out with selecting your knife and sharpening.

Oh yeah, there is no difference between a cooks knife and a chef knife, some even call it a French knife, and if you go with Japanese brands they may call it a gyuto.
post #7 of 79
The four most popular styles of knives in a N.American kitchen are: (drum roll please):

A 8" or 10" Chef's knife

A paring knife

A Serrated Sandwich knife (Forschner makes the best bang for your dollar in this category)

A boning knife

Until you're comfortable with the above, don't expand your kit

O.K. if you're slicing sashimi, or smoked salmon, or terrines or the like, then go specialized.

Like others have said, if the odds are in the favour of your knives getting borrowed, abused, or stolen at work, don't bring them to work.

Aim for under $100 for your first Chef's knife, and here's why:

Like shoes, knives are highly specialized and very personal. A very expensive knife is no guarantee that it will fit your hand, be comfortable, or make you a prep-God. You need to practice with the knife, and work on your knife skills. Don't even think about speed, focus on accuaracy, speed comes naturally when you have accuracy..

A sub $100 knife will serve you well, and if you tire of it and get a more expensive one, you can use if for back-up or lend it out. I've met more of my fair share of cooks who've blown a big chunk of cash for knives, and a few weeks later don't like them, or can't be bothered with the sharpening regime and either want to sell them or they sit in a closet.

A word of warning, both BdL and The tourist have been bitten by the sharpening bug. Well, I guess I too, have been bitten pretty hard by it. It's a very slippery slope.

If you have no prior experience with sharpening, keep in mind two things:

1) Like with war and love, anything goes in the sharpening world.

And exactly like war and love, a sharp difference of opinions can lead to, well, you know.

2) Don't start "freehand" sharpening untill you learn about bevels, the importance of them, about abrasives, how to maintain the abrasives, and about jigs, or devices that ensure accurate bevels are established. There are books available and videos on youtube and the like that will give you this information. It doesn't make sense to go at a knife on a stone if you don't know what you're doing. If you're not ready, then take the knife to a pro for the first few times until you're ready.

Above all, remember this:

A knife is just a hunk of sharp steel, the magic is in your hands and eye-hand coordination.
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
post #8 of 79
Fair enough. But remember that a lot of plumbers get emergency calls because an unschooled home owner tried to fix his pipes. Sharpening is a craft like anything else.

Consider the reverse here. Many restaurants report that their revenue is down. People are bypassing chefs to cook their own food. Many will never return. Heck, people are learning they can filter their own water cheaply.

There is no doubt in my mind that a hundred chefs just said, "Cook their own food! They will never be able to recreate my famous signature dish...!"

No, but I make a mean meatloaf. So, I'm your equal, right?

Same thing here. Even among the pros, their knives aren't as sharp as they think. Here's an example.

I live in Madison, Wisconsin. For several decades our community was home to the Oscar Mayer plant that processed pork products. From the kill-floor to the packaging, all of it was done here.

During that time, the conventional wisdom was that no one sharpened a knife like a professional OM boner. Well, the plant closed, and many of those same knives were given away to people who became my clients.

Very few--and I mean one in twenty--were well cared for, sharp, or even functional in their present state. The problem was simple. A boner was hired for his skill in taking pigs apart, not as a tinker.

Last week I met a young boy who is schlepping for my favorite Chinese restaurant while he takes culinary classes at our local MATC. My personal jackknife was sharper than any knife in his roll. He had poor quailty soft kitchen knives, and he didn't even know you could buy Japanese knives on the 'net.

I told him to ask his classmates for additional help. He reports that they were just as clueless.

After working for chefs I can report that while they might sincerely try to take care of their edges, most of them just rub them on a soft Arkansas or a red India. I have never met a professional who knows how to correctly sharpen a sashimi--the knife used to prepare fugu, making it devoid of fatal toxins.

Ego aside, just because you own a piano don't expect a call from Carnegie Hall. And even if you can remove silvers in your sleep that doesn't make you a sharpener.
post #9 of 79
Thread Starter 
WoW. Thanks for the replies.

Well let me explain my position exactly. In a way I aint a cook and I will never be one. The place I work at is my dads and we cook traditional food. I know I aint good as a good cook but basiclaly I kno I am able to cook some stuff better than a good cook, difference is my menu is much much smaller than a cook's one.

I work in the kitchen for like 10-12-16 hrs a day every day so I am looking for some good knives and I want them to be of good quality cause I really like knives aswell.

Theft wont be a problem and I am sure I will take care of my knives.

I have considered Shun as they look really good but are they good when it comes to working with them?

Another thing about sharpening. Can you give me like a list on what to search for on youtube please I have no idea about sharpening in a way. though I used to sharpen a combat knife on a sharpening stone using "Oil"(forgot what it is called in english it's used for lamps. hope u got my point :P) but when it comes to kitchen knives I have no idea.

Another thing the place I live I been to every cathering shop and I havent found any shun, misnono knives etc. Only cheap ones so I will have to buy them from the net. So I will not be able to hold them in my hand etc

Again thanks for your replies

post #10 of 79
Contact Ben Dale at www.edgeproinc.com
post #11 of 79
Okay, a couple additional notes, particularly now that you've clarified your situation.

1. Look into your local health code. In some places you cannot use wooden handles, in some you can't use carbon steel, and so on. Don't bother looking at stuff you're not allowed to use, right?

2. Sounds to me like you probably want "durable as ****" over anything else at this point. You don't sharpen, you're not an expert cook, etc. So what we need is a foundation, and if you get hooked you can always upgrade. People get nuts about "oh my god, these knives are SOOOO expensive!" and then go buy cars. See what I mean?

3. Your best bet, I think, is to look at what the other cooks in your dad's kitchen do as far as sharpening goes. Do they steel their knives? Hand-grind them on stones? Send them out? Plan to do what they do. Then buy knives that fit this model. So if everyone steels his knives, you probably don't want Japanese knives: you want German or French, which respond well to steeling. If everyone hand-grinds and gets a little weird about knives, you probably want Japanese. That way you can learn your habits from those around you.

4. I applaud your "buy the best as an investment" approach, but it won't work terribly well here. Fact is that a respectable Forschner will last a very long time if treated well, and doing the kind of cooking you describe you probably will never need more. But "need" isn't everything either. There's also having a knife that's a pleasure to use, or is exciting to sharpen, or whatever. Part of that is just aesthetics -- what you think is pretty, what feels nice in your hand, etc. -- but part of it really is quality. The problem is that you could go ludicrously up-market -- there is such a thing as a $500 chef's knife that's not just overpriced hype -- and not really get a lot of bang for your buck. It depends on how you cut, and what you cut, and how you sharpen, and all that.

At this point, may I recommend that you pick up a respectable set of Forschners or Dexter-Russells or something and just take it as it comes? If you get hooked, buy one fancy chef's knife (cook's knife, gyuto, whatever) and play with it; if you hate that, sell it online for 75% what you paid and chalk up the small difference to experience.
post #12 of 79
Tourist, I didn't mean "getten bitten by the sharpening bug" to mean anything negative. I have great respect (and quite a bit of jealousy) to people who can do things better than I. However, as we all know, once you get that almost-perfect edge for the first time, your collection of abrasives, jigs, machines, and knives--- keeps on growing and your wallet keeps on shrinking.... It's a slippery slope, and I'm at a stage now where I'll either get a monocrystaline diamond stone to keep my regular waterstones flat and for basic shaping, or look into a set of Shaptons. Either way it'll cost me.....

Herbman, my biggest fear for all cooks is the "dissapearing" knife. I've seen fistfights, locker room brawls, co-erced dumpseter diving, and garbage bag slashing--all because a knife was lost. If you work in a small place where everyone knows everyone else, the odds of a decent knife "dissapearing" are almost "0". So feel free to go more expensive if you want to. However...You need to work with a workhorse before you can appreciate a thoroughbred

Just start fooling around on Youtube looking for "sharpening" videos. The CIA (uh.. Culinary Inst. of A.) has a good book out all dealing with knives, and your library should have books about sharpening too. You'll find alot of these books in the woodworking section, and you will find sharpening supplies in high-quality woodworker's stores, as well as knife merchants.

The two most important things about sharpening, and what everyone can agree on is this:

1) The bevel, or angle at which both sides of the blade meet is very important, different angles for different knives and purposes, and different materials, This angle must be maintained.

2) Always use the finest grit posible for a durable edge. You must use succesive finer grits to get to the finest, each finer grit will remove the last grit's scratch marks. Most pros go as high as 8 -12,000 grit, and some as high as 30,000. Such a high grit will give a mirror polish, which is a smooth surface. Coarser grits will leave scratches, and it is these scratches that weaken and fatigue the edge prematurely.

If you are going to fool around with sharpening, it pays to get a cheap jewler's loupe, a 30X, to actually see what you're doing.
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
...."This whole reality thing is really not what I expected it would be"......
post #13 of 79
Well, there we can agree.:lol: After I realized that I had invested about +$4K in sharpening equipment I quit counting! It could be double that by now. But let me give you an example on how this translates into business opportunities with chefs.

In about one month a folder called the Boker Plus G4 is going to roll out. I have an order in to my supplier, and I will pay about 13 bucks per unit. From those, I will sharpen a few test "mules." When I meet a chef--and I want to impress him--I'll give him the knife and a business card. It sure beats a cheap ballpoint pen printed up with my phone number and a witty slogan...

The chef will play with the new toy, slice a few things, and 'boing' a lightbulb will go off in his head that my gift is sharper than his complete roll of knives. That opens the door. But to keep him as a client I have to sharpen and polish each and every knife he tosses on the table--including the broken stuff. Some tools I only use once or twice per year.

No, I have a Harley for that...
post #14 of 79
Thread Starter 
Yeah you are right I should get a crap chef knife to practice sharpening on for now.

As I said earlier theft is not a problem and I am the only one in the kitchen and get help from my dad if needs be. Other workers are family so heh I don't think they are gonna steal from me.

Thanks for the replies as I said I am green in these area. I always worked with cheap knives and I never sharpened them properly.

One last question to you guys. What do you think about Shun knives? I mean they caught my eye and yes I know they are expensive. And as I said I can never try holding different knives in my hand as were I am from no body sells good quality knives. So my last question is Are Shun - Good - Durable and Comfortable?(I kno it has to be me to know but I can't so I will let you guys guide me)

Thanks for all the replies was really really helpful.

post #15 of 79
Shun is an example of Japan laminate steels and their traditional shapes. In other words, one of many Japanese knives.

As stated, go to www.japanwoodworker.com (and that's just one of many examples) and you will find numerous knives constructed in this manner at cheaper prices. And you can order there by telephone.

Personally, I sharpened two Shun santokus last week, and I still like my wife's smaller Hattori gyuto better.
post #16 of 79
Thread Starter 
Hey sorry for late reply been really busy. Well I been thinkin about it and I also have been watching some videos on youtube about sharpening.

I am going for Shun knives and I also found some on ebay new for sale. Just to make sure do you guys know if the ones on ebay are original? I dont know if they produce any fakes.

BTW what is the difference between a diamond steel and a wetstone?

post #17 of 79
Congrats on the choice of knife. Like I mentioned before, I have the Kai knives and I think they are great, the Shun can only be that much better.

A diamond steel is essentially a honing rod made of a smooth steel road and coasted in industrial diamonds (example A Amazon.com: Shun Combination Whetstone Model DM0600 1000/6000 grit.: Kitchen & Dining) instead of the fine grooves found on most (example B Amazon.com: Wüsthof 10-Inch Sharpening Steel: Kitchen & Dining). A ceramic "steel" is the same device made of ceramic rod. I think you will find that most people on here will recommend not using a steel of any sort on a Japanese knife. I have the white mac ceramic steel (Example C Amazon.com: MAC brand Ceramic Knife Sharpener #SR85: Home & Garden it does a fine job on my blades. Just remember that a steel does not sharpen, it hones. A good video is the Alton Brown videos from the shun website. It explains a lot of this in plane english. Or try to look on you tube for Alton Brown's show Good Eats, there is an episode about knives

A whetstone is a sharpening stone that uses water as a lubricant rather than an oil (example D Amazon.com: Shun Combination Whetstone Model DM0600 1000/6000 grit.: Kitchen & Dining.) Most Japanese knives makers will offer a corresponding whetstone. YOu can really buy any whetstone that you like, and most major manufacturers offer them . The standard from what i can find is KING brand. They can be found easily on Amazon. Another place that sells whetstones is Lee Valley Tools - Woodworking Tools, Gardening Tools, Hardware

For a beginner, don't be afraid to simply follow the recommended sharpening by the manufacturer of the knife you buy. Getting nuts about sharpening isn't a bad thing, it is just not a necessity for your job as a cook. Maintain them as best as you can and you will get to be a sharpening guru in time. The sharpest knife in the world, although really really cool, is only going to improve your cooking maybe 1%.
post #18 of 79
Thread Starter 
Hey rbro thanks for the reply and yeah the knife doesnt have anything to do with the cooking.

BTW rbro is it possible for you to link me the starting stuff(from Shun web) I need to buy for ex 3 starting knives(paring, chef,boning - these were recommended in the above posts) + wet stones + steel, etc like a small list if it is always possible for you. If it is a problem don't bother.

The replys were really helpful I literally had no idea about knives and sharpening.

post #19 of 79
Perhaps not for the actual cooking, but I believe the knife serves for three key points.

First is simply the ease in which food is prepared by your staff, and you can see that in catering. If you're fighting a poor knife for many hours against a deadline, you may wind up a victim of carpal tunnel syndrome.

Second, you should consider portion size and profits. In watching a sous-chef block out a section of beef, he made more precise slices and may have garnered a few more servings with less waste. More servings, more profit.

The last is presentation. You obviously have watched servers steel a carving implement when serving prime rib, and it demonstrates care. However with sushi, tight rolls and even slices relate to presentation.

In a business where mere color and the style of plate add to the experience, the "construction" of the food is a major factor.
post #20 of 79
All water stones are whetstones but not all whetstones are water stones. A whetstone is simply a flat stone used for sharpening or "whetting," a blade. In other words, it's a sharpening stone. There are many different kinds of sharpening stones -- if you want to get into a discussion of freehand sharpening on stones, it's a good idea to start a separate thread.

As The Tourist said, a "diamond steel" is usually a rod hone with industrial diamonds fixed to it in one way or another. "Usually" in that a couple of manufacturers refer to their grooving pattern as "diamond," even though there are no actual diamonds.

My general recommendation is to avoid diamond steels or any steels with an aggressive pattern for kitchen knives. While these types of rod hones will develop a very sharp, micro-serrated edge quickly, the rod's geometry puts so much pressure on the blade that any variation in angle or pressure creates an uneven edge.

If you haven't already purchased, I'd avoid Shun chef's knives. They have a really lousy topline that nets a really high tip. It's very inconvenient for a lot of cutting. Their other profiles aren't as bad. On the whole, Shuns are medium value for money. In almost every profile, there are less expensive, better, Japanese knives.

Also, regarding Shun, there are a lot of different sorts of Japanese laminated steel blades (to use The Tourist's description). Most Shuns, including almost certainly, any of the lines you're looking at, have a core of VG-10 stainless steel (good stuff), covered on both sides by a very soft layer of a "damascus" look steel (called suminagashi in Japanese). Despire Shun's ad copy the suminagashi serves no practical purpose -- it is not at all "non-stick," for instance. On the other hand, Shun's version of the cladding is very soft and the design is very delicate. It will scratch and disappear quickly; but cannot be brought back by mere buffing.

Finally, I suggest having a definite plan on how you're going to keep your knives sharp. If you're using your chef's knive heavily for a log shift of restaurant prep you're going to need to sharpen AT LEAST every week.

Hope this helps,
post #21 of 79
Actually, I didn't. The quote came from rbrosseau. I believe a diamond belongs on a woman's finger, not on sharpening devices.

(Oh, you might need a fine diamond 'stone' to sharpen those ionfusin Buck knives and those multi-colored salon scissors. That plating can go Rc 80. Nothing else really needs it.)

Many of you have seen the Alton Brown Shun knife tutorial on his website. Humorous and great info. If you have not seen it, I recommend it. (I also recommend the video "Live By It" on youtube, but I digress.)

Alton had two large knves made fron foam rubber. For my scenario, imagine those knives made of modeling clay. Now imagine a kid's sandbox rake clawing the edge to sharpen one. That's what a real knife looks like sharpened by a diamond under a well lit magnifying loupe.

Great for an ice auger, but not so good for a knife you actually want to keep.
post #22 of 79
The Tourist,

Sorry for conflating you with rbrousseau. Careless of me. On the other hand, you could have been conflated with far worse.

As long as A. B. came up, it should be mentioned that Alton Brown has a commercial arrangement with Shun knives. He's paid to say nice things about them. Shun Classic are good knives in the same way that Wusthoff Classics are good knives. They're well finished and will perform reasonably for a long time, with good maintenance. On the other hand, there are far better for the same money. Also, as I said before, the Shuns (from the Kershaw series) have that extremely high point. That means getting the handle up at some very weird angles in order accomplish every day tasks like scoring an onion before dicing it. That's a deal breaker for me. Some people just love 'em, of course. But in my experience they're comparing Shuns to western manufactured knifes -- and because the Shuns are lighter, and be made much sharper, and are more agile the Shuns are superior. But compared to a good Japanese knife, not so much.

Kitchen knife hobbyists (which pretty much means Japanese kitchen knives these days) seem almost angry at Shun.

Personally, I think the Shun western style boning knife is a nice knife as long as you're happy with the handle, and don't mind the suminagashi pattern fading. The boning knife is one of the very few (perhaps the only) European pattern "desosseurs" available in VG-10. It's the only knife from Shun's Kershaw design series I'd consider recommending.

That said, few people have a clue as to what a boning knife is actually supposed to do, nor how to do it -- so I don't recommend it often.

I think the best value in high quality, stainless knives for professional use are MAC Pro, Togiharu VG, Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff, and Hirmoto G. You might want to thrown Misono Moly in there for the great handle -- but the steel isn't at quite the same level as the others.

post #23 of 79
I think Kasumi (the brand) and Ran also make Western-pattern boning knives that are shaped almost exactly like the Shun. I believe Tourist is a reseller for the latter, and I recall him praising them in any event. IMO BDL hits it on the head- the Shuns are good knives but shape of their chef's knife leaves a lot to be desired vs the typical gyuto.

Also, I don't know if you've purchased them yet, but if you buy them from eBay you'd be wise to stick with a seller with good feedback. I dunno if there are fake Shuns out there but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Better still would be to buy from a reputable vendor like ChefKnivesToGo or CutleryAndMore. Both offer free shipping and very competitive prices. The former carries a tremendous range of other J-knives, too.
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
post #24 of 79
Oh, it was of no concern. But imagine how he feels being conflated with me. Probably the biggest insult the man has endured.:lol:

Well, technically I rep for every item in the Blue Ridge Knife catalog (over one inch thick), I also hawk JWW, and I've even sold a dozen Edge Pro fixtures and a heaping helping of Ben's glass mounts. (Which I wrestled him into producing.)

But while that is true, I carry Strider and Emerson knives--which I don't sell--and I personally use Hattori knives, and I don't cook. I ride. In the final analysis I think most folks should separate the person they are from the work they do.

Well, lots of folks hate the NY Yankees, as well. As for the Shuns, I hate to sound like a broken record, but the tools of a professional chef and a serious food hobbyist need to work in conjunction with the men who sell and service them. Let's pretend that you hate Shun, but you are my next door neighbor. I'll bet I could make you a deal that your opinions would change if I prepared every Shun you used to your exacting specifications.

You might be reluctant, but I know it happens. But I live in Wisconsin, and I can verify that the quarterback we used to love and revere is now the most hated guy in football.

Sadly that is true. Like any other item, the best performance is shared by educated consumers.
post #25 of 79
Mr. Favre is a lucky man! He finally saw the light and is saved.;) It's ironic that it took him so many years to finally land on the best team in the NFL!

"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
"Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
post #26 of 79
"I am going for Shun knives and I also found some on ebay new for sale. Just to make sure do you guys know if the ones on ebay are original? I dont know if they produce any fakes"

I would think long and hard before buying knives on eBay. There are many fakes sold there. Global has an entire page of eBay fakes on their Euro web site. I'm not a Shun fan. I just do not care for the handles or that cheesy Damascus cladding on some of their products. I find them a pain to sharpen. In either event if you do opt for Shun be sure to check Amazon. Their prices are often lower, they have an incredibly good return policy and the freight is often free!
I'm sure you will get a lot of varying opinions any time you get brand specific.
I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
I think the most wonderful thing in the world is another chef. I'm always excited about learning new things about food.
Paul Prudhomme
post #27 of 79
That could just be from the center layer of VG-10. Consider this.

Many sporting knives are made from VG-10, and sporting goods stores sharpen them. And there are many other companies, like Yaxell Ran, that use even more layers than Shun in their construction.

This could be a good example on where we think outside the box. Perhaps the best stone needed for a Shun is not a traditional waterstone, but the stone you use for the knives to field dress deer and elk.

Here's an example. I like mirror finishes on the bevels I produce for kitchen knives. In fact, mine gleam.

I do this for two reasons. One, they 'slip' easier through the medium they are asked to slice. Two, if the bevel is devoid of tool marks, so is the very edge.

When I sought out things like pastes and pumice, I contacted outlets that specialized in "knife stuff." I went the route of chromium oxide and traditional nagura. And while I still use nagura pumice for some stones, I no longer polish with traditional pastes.

For automotive use, there is no better polish than that produced by a company called "Mothers." So I bought two cans of there paste. One, 'Mag Wheel Paste' I use for buffing jackknives and general kitchen knives.

Ahh, but for perfection like on an Hattori, i use Mothers Billet Paste.

I first printed this in a traditional knife forum. Talk about being branded a heretic--that is, until they tried it.

I think the same deal here exists for Shun's use of VG-10. I routinely sharpen sporting knives made from S30V, with several of them HT from master Paul Bos.

Approach this sharpening task as you would for any other type of edge.
post #28 of 79
Sure thing Herbman,

I would stay with the Shun Classic series, the other models they offer are more gimmicky than useful. Especially the Ken Onion stuff.

This is their utility/ petty knife. This will actually do most boning and paring jobs for you. I would only get a true boning knife if you suspect you will do a lot of boning. KAI USA : Shun Product Details

This is the boning knife, again if you do alot of boning this may be more convienient. It may also have a more flexible blade than the utility. But it is no good for just about any other job. KAI USA : Shun Product Details

This is the 10" Chef knife, (if you prefer the 8" the model number is DM0706), KAI USA : Shun Product Details

This is the bread knife. Unless a matched set is important to you I feel this knife is overpriced for what you get and that the Mac
(Amazon.com: MAC Carving or Bread Knife (#SB105): Home & Garden) is a better choice, KAI USA : Shun Product Details

This is the regular paring knife. I've been cooking for 3 years and I haven't touched my paring knife since chef school. So I would say this knife is optional unless you know you will use it for sure especially since its $75: KAI USA : Shun Product Details

As far as sharpening is concerned this stone by Shun will do everything you need it to do. In fact if you can find separate stones with the same grit for a better price than get that instead: KAI USA : Shun Product Details

If you want to get a steel then I wouldn't recommend shun steel. It's grooved surface can be hard on the thin Japanese blades. I would get a Mac ceramic, the newer black one. They are priced right and work well. You would use this during your shift to maintain your edge and then sharpen when necessary on your stones. Amazon.com: MAC Ceramic Black Honing Rod #SRB103: Home & Garden

Also assuming that you are buying online, now that you have a list of model numbers that you want, search for the best prices. Amazon.com seems to be the best priced for Shun and Mac. If you want to stay with a Shun/Kai product and save some cash on a few pieces, check out their "SEKI MAGOROKU" line. As i mentioined before I have 3 of them and they are really good knives for the money and they are made by kai which is the company that makes shun. They are available from Amazon. You can also find tons of sharpening stones on Amazon. If you want to check this stuff out in person, williams-sonoma sells the shun stuff. And although I forget his name, the guy at Mac USA will give you any information you want about his stuff by phone MAC Knife Inc. USA they are pretty good to deal with.
post #29 of 79

I disagree with you about the VG-10 issue and Shuns. I've not seen many people who seriously know what they're talking about -- including you -- say bad things about VG-10. What many such people -- including BDL -- dislike is Shun knives, and NOT because of the VG-10.

BDL dislikes the shape in the gyuto, and I've seen others agree with him on that. I haven't used one, and can't really comment, but visually at least I see what he's talking about and am suspicious there.

But on the damascus/suminagashi cladding, I am entirely in agreement with BDL. It's pretty if you like that sort of thing, which I don't, but that's pure aesthetics. It does nothing whatsoever for the cutting or maintenance. And it wears off, raising the question of why you'd pay for it in the first place. I'd rather have a VG-10 knife without the silly cladding, myself, or for that matter a high-end carbon steel knife without the silly cladding.

As to people trashing Shun in a vaguely zombie-cult-like way, which BDL also refers to, that's different. Some do it because the supposedly "hot" expert types trash them, and folks want to be thought clever and in the know (and want to think of themselves that way too). Some do it because Shun is mass-market, and that's intrinsically uncool. But some do it because of irritating things like damascus cladding, weird knife shapes, and gimmickry like the Ken Onion knives.

Let's face it, you like them or you don't. But the serious objections aren't because it some sort of "heresy" to use VG-10.
post #30 of 79
Chris, if I was to make my own line of knives they might indeed be hammered and folded, but they would be made out of ZDP-189, and every one of them would be sent to Paul Bos.

A knife is for slicing. As that relates to this forum, that means wet and salty things, and an edge that doesn't let you down at the worst possible times.

ZDP-189 is iron, chrome and carbon. That's it. It has so much chrome, in fact, that in Dane County Wisconsin it can be legally classified as a truck bumper.

It's hard as nails, polishes like a mirror and sharpens fairly easily. Yeah, I like VG-10, but I also like S30V and the Graham Brothers are now using CPM-154CM. My opinion is that you don't take one alloy and make it work for every implement, compromising as you go.

Several of my EDC knives are old, boring 440C, and they are perfect for the jobs I subject them to.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Cooking Knife Reviews
ChefTalk.com › ChefTalk Cooking Forums › Food & Equipment Reviews › Cooking Knife Reviews › Hello. Some Question about knives