Culinary School Grad

Right?!?!?!?!

This is something that burns my biscuits.
I teach in a little known community college culinary department, it kills me to see people spend $$$ for an education that they have no base for. -does that make sense?
First off, you need to teach EVERYTHING not just the sexy sugar work or artisan breads.
I love that I get to show and tell every day. We teach TECHNIQUE, the technique will set you free.
From using an oven, washing the floors, what flour to use for what reason, how to crack an egg, peel a carrot, use a scale~digital, bakers beam,~ measure liquids.
I know, it's not cutting edge but most students coming into culinary school have never cooked outside the home.

while uniform is important, and i do hold students accountable, it's not the only thing.
following direction, working within a group as leader or follower, problem solving, curiosity....

I feel for you and for her....it must suck interviewing a confident student who seemed qualified only to have her not meet your needs. But believe me, she is falling hard right now realizing everything that she doesn't know.

All cooking schools are great for giving controlled exposure to techniques and kitchen equipment. This builds confidence.

But I learned that there are a LOT of drawbacks to cooking school too.

1) schools do not allow for repetition, and the one chance you get at making something is usually ideal circumstances. You make a hollandaise once, and that's it! You don't learn how to do it over different types of heat sources....you don't learn what to do when it breaks....you don't learn to do it at kitchen speed...you don't learn the simple way of doing it (i.e. you learn a method that is fancy and more complex than most restaurants would use)...you don't learn many (if any) of the signs to look for to make sure you are on the right track. I could make hollandaise at home, no problem....but for the life of me, I could not make it consistently on a french top in a prof. kitchen with no double boiler.

She probably did the first cake just fine because for whatever reason, it was the perfect set of circumstances for her....but the next cake with the crumb problem, maybe the cake was drier, or the icing thicker...and she probably never had the chance to learn how to "see" these issues nor how to compensate for them, nor how to prevent them. She probably didn't even realize that she was doing it wrong until it as pointed out to her.

2) Students really are at the mercy of the teachers they get. My basic cookery teacher couldn't make a hollandaise herself....she tried and it failed. So she had us watch a demo by another chef and then never gave us the chance to make it ourselves......since I "knew" how to make it at home, I felt fine in bypassing the sauce. But WOW did this lack of knowledge show through once I was on the line.

And for that...I wonder if your new hire even ever received exposure to thickening using corn starch. To you, it is the simplest thing in the world to do, but I would not be surprised if her instructor taught them "If you need to thicken something....do it THIS way! THIS way is the best way....if you do it like me, you won't need to know any other way." (I have seen this before too.) And, she probably only thickened fruit a few times in total....each time she probably did it the exact same way as the instructor had taught them.

3) As for multiplying the recipes....wow....that is really bad unless, of course, they received all their recipes pre-multiplied for them. That was the one thing we DID receive repetition on! We were to type up recipes cards each week and adjust the recipes for the number of servings needed (actually, I think I did this on my own because I wanted to learn how to do it.) Either way, I am certain that she should have at least learned that much. So don't know what to tell you there.

I know the chef I externed under for a short time had a controlled-contempt for cooking schools for these reasons above (and more.)

But from the student point of view "How do I get into a kitchen without experience?" Cooking schools make you think you have experience....and let's be a little honest here....would you have hired her if she came to you with no experience but said she really wanted to learn how to bake?

Sadly, I do think that both sides get the short end of the stick on this one. She's led to believe she is ready for the big time....you know she is just starting out, but you didn't realize that YOU would be responsible for re-training her from square-one.

Man, I don't know if I really added anything to this discussion other than to say I am sorry for what you are going through. Good luck to you both!

[QUOTE=lentil;276858]I just hired a young person who graduated from a 2 year culinary program at a well known culinary school. Her focus was baking and her portfolio looked great.

Her first task was to frost a 6 inch 4 layer cake which would later be decorated with fresh flowers. She did a great job. The next day, she was to frost another cake which she did very poorly- dragging the crumbs through the frosting and making a huge mess. I had to scrape it all off and start over. Today she was supposed to make a blueberry pie by cooking the berries with cornstarch for a few minutes. She was totally lost although she read the recipe. She had never used cornstarch as a thickener before and had to be directed throughout the process. She can't multiply a recipe and had no earthly idea what approx 4 ounces of butter would look like.

My question to you is this: what should I expect a graduate of culinary school to know? I suspect that if I asked her to make puff pastry from scratch, she'd do fine, but the simple stuff is lost on her. What's up with this? Any thoughts?[/QUOTE

I can tell you from experience to assume and expect nothing. I taught for 9 years and learned one thing myself, they either have it in the hands or they don't. I blame the schools and their greed for the almighty dollar. They should give an aptitude test before taking in the student and stealing their money. When I was teaching I got in a lot of trouble by saying to the class at the offset" Everybody receive this textbook? OK throw it in the garbage, because I am going to show and tell you the way its really done out there"". The dean thought I was crazy, but the students I had did better then the others. I am not bragging ,but as I have said on many occasions the schools paint visions of sugarplums in there heads, and like most businesses are concerned with bottom line and profits. All schools after an aptitude test should also require at least 1 year of food service employment before admittance.:chef:

Odds are she'd screw up the puff pastry as well... You really can't expect anything out of a culinary school grad.

Last pastry job I had I had to supervise several pastry school grads - they were so clueless I'd give them busywork just so they didn't have time to screw anything up. Every once in awhile I'd walk them through something, or maybe let them do a few things with supervision. The fact of the matter is, culinary school is more or less a scam to separate people from their money - if you want to learn, go work for a Michelin starred chef for awhile (or a good, professional pastry chef)...

I've actually known a few chefs who absolutely refused to hire a culinary school grad - if job-seekers listed a culinary school on their CV it was promptly thrown away...

Not to mention, doing pastries simply isn't for everyone. You need to be very organized, borderline obsessive about details, understand food chemistry, have basic math skills (surprising how many cooks fail here) and be able to multitask...

Love the responses....I ditto what everyone said. Every culinary school grad I have hired or worked with was a miserable failure, sorry to say. I was surprised and disappointed when I came to figure out that I couldn't count on them like I thought I would be able to.

When I came out of culinary school, my chefs made it very plain that school was just a way to get your foot in the door. The REAL education started once you got a job. My attitude was when I got in the work world that I would be licking dishes for a while, and I did. I still had to work myself up the ladder, and I was driven to learn, even when school ended. I watched my bosses closely and did what I was told. I learned that "yes, Chef" were the only words they wanted to hear. I guess that's how I survived it all. As a culinary school grad myself, it's hard for me to believe how pathetic most of the grads are now these days. It's like they have a sense of entitlement, false confidence, and no drive to learn or WORK hard once they're in your kitchen.:crazy:

This is a great thread. I am going to take this info and make good use of it.

Get rid of the other 2 and make the girl with little experience the assistant baker under your tutolage. Give her praise and maybe a raise, you will be better off. Just because a kid spends $20,000.00 a year to go to CIA, does not mean zilch.

I have to HIGHLY AGREE with chefpeon's comment.....schooling was a way to get your foot in the door.

Prior to taking classes, I received absolutely zero interviews. AFTER taking some classes, I finally started getting call backs (even though I really hadn't gained any dramatically new knowledge.) I hadn't even finished a full year yet. But it was just enough actual knowledge to make my resume look readable, I guess.

But it was the brief externship where I learned just what was needed in the kitchen, and learned more accurately where my speed and skills were. Because of that experience, I have also been able to turn down a few jobs because I knew that I would be out of my league and slowing the line down. Can I make paninis and crepes? Yes! Can I make hundreds of them for a high volume bistro serving a large to-go clientele in a business district of a large city? Not yet!

It was a little sad though, because I would have loved to receive training for it, but they were not in a position to offer training--yet, they kept trying to get me to accept the position....weird. Anyways, I knew that I would not be a good fit for the job or their needs. If I have interviewed straight out of my culinary classes, I would have thought, "Sure....I can soooooo do this job, no problem! Panini press? Yeah I have used one before....Turn out 12 ingredient paninis every 30-45 seconds? Not a problem."

Even with just a little real world experience, I feel like I have learned a ton about myself and real world duties. And sadly, I wouldn't have gotten that much without some classes on my resume. The double-bind, right?

Continued luck with your bakery!

The last CIA grad I had was a big disappointment, the end of the week on a late Saturday service it was time to clean the station and pack it up for the night. I got done scrubbing the floor and asked her to mop up the rest. Keep in mind I am the pastry chef and I am scrubbing the floor myself, the yucky part. All I asked was for her to grab a mop and get the rest of the water up. She looked at me and said she did not spend x amount of dollars to mop floor, she was a chef not a dishwasher. I fired her the next day after consulting with the exec chef, he was just as floored. It is the sense of entitlement that gets me, no one wants to put in the time anymore.
She could make pretty pulled sugar flowers though.

Wow. I mean just, wow.

I am a current culinary student and I am absolutly floored to hear some of the comments about Culinary Grad students. I think that these students just kind of fell through the crakes. The person that couldn't make hollandaise sauce is amazing. My first quarter you couldn't pass unless you could make it, without breaking it, with in a small time frame. In the kitchen we mop everyday and are reminded constantly that this will be a part of the rest of our lives. I do however agree that this has alot to do with the schools them selves. All students are required to take a mandatory basic pastry class and it was very hard to deal with the people that were just there to get through and haveing to work with them was almost impossible, since Pastry is my field of study. It is very hard for people like me that work very hard and truely love this profession when there are so many others out there that just don't care. I see alot of 18 year olds comeing into the school because their parents say they have to go to college, so they figure culinary is an easy degree. It makes it hard for anyone with a true passion.

I'm one of the lucky ones. My Dad and Mom Bought there first bakery when I was 3( 41 years ago). They are from Switzerland and I can say I learned from the best, and still learning. Dad at 80 loves the pastry. My point is that what they learn in school is nothing like the work place. I've be disappointed with almost everyone that's applied straight from come out of a culinary school. It's a tough call:confused:

Wow Novi....I hope you weren't referring to my comment re not being able to make the sauce "for the life of me." That was more of a tongue in cheek comment regarding the relative ease of making something using school methods (or in my case home methods) versus doing it the way the chef wants it done. But the reality is, there is the school way and cook book way of doing things....then there is the way your chef wants it. If a right handed pitcher has an ERA of 1.00, there is no way in kelp that he will have an ERA of 1.00 if he switches to left handed pitching. Oh he can get to a 1.00 eventually, but it won't count until he is up against live batters.

I admit I had problems with making the sauce directly on a french top....when would I ever have had the previous opportunity to make the sauce on one? Never....who has a french top at home? But I worked my butt off to reproduce the sauce as my chef wanted it--school version be darned! And I am proud of rectifying my lack of skills.

School methods are great if you are lucky enough to find a chef who does things the exact way you were taught and your circumstances are ideal. But chances are that there are none out there. I still remember getting looked at by my sous as if I had lobsters coming out of my ears when, upon being asked to chop parsley, I asked "Squeeze the juice out or no?" Yup....great story. But my basic cookery chef taught us to ALWAYS squeeze the juice out of parsley. Yeah.....my sous just stopped, thought, and respectfully said, "Uh, no." And yet, OF COURSE I had to ask.....I wanted to do things their way. I just never thought that my innocent question would be SO FOREIGN in a live kitchen. School screws with your head and methods.

But again...I stand by my comments....without school, I would not have gotten my foot in the door. And yes, I was one of those serious ones like you.

Wow Novi....I hope you weren't referring to my comment re not being able to make the sauce "for the life of me." That was more of a tongue in cheek comment


Oh I in no way ment it that way. I just used it as a reference concidering the many things being said about the students. I completely agree with everything you said. Even by just seeing many of these same circumstances in the class room. I see so many people slip through the system with out even the basic knowledge needed in the indusrty. I feel that a big part of that is the student themselves. If they don't care you can't make them and the Chef's can only do so much. I do believe that there should be stricker rules to being excepted into culinary schools, money should not be the only guidline. The classrooms are filling so fast and so many people are able to slide through undetected.

I still chuckle about the culinary grad we hired that scaled every ingredient perfectly down to the exact 1 tbsp of salt.

I am led to believe that in the past, alot of schools required prior experience before enrolling. All it took me to get accepted was an answer to one question. "Are you sure that you want to cook? I mean youre not like ummm gonna wanna be a doctor or lawyer or something once I let you in?"

Also, I was disappointed in the lack of enforcement of rules. One student actually painted his house while wearing check pants. He showed up the next day with a big patch of blue behind his leg, the chef commented and asked him to wear a clean pair tomorrow. He didn't, and was never called out or disciplined. The blue patch became his "style" and he wore them to pretty much every class with no trouble.

When learning how to make something, we only touched over it once. I am a fan of learning by repitition. On the day for learning hollandaise, I kept breaking mine, got a C for the day, and we moved on. I never saw hollaindaise again until I got a job and had to make it pretty much for every shift.

Theres alot of inherent flaws that I feel are part of the "get their money, get them in, get them out" mentality of schools. They will say anything just to get that 45k

That's exactly it. Usually there are no previous courses or experience you must have to get into culinary school. You just have to have the money. Or not have the money and get sucked into a loan that's nearly impossible to pay back on a cook's wages!

Again as I have said many times, "It is not the school. it's the person who is attending it"'

They all teach how to do it about the same way.(Basics) and same ingredients. Its how YOU pay attention and absorb the info, how YOU apply it, and how much further YOU want to go with it.:)

For every decent cook that went to culinary school, there's a decent cook that didn't. You're right, it is the person. However culinary school doesn't seem to matter at all. A good cook will succeed with or without school.

A not-so-brilliant culinary student chiming in.

I kinda agreed; culinary school isn't -the- only one gate towards culinary success, ****, it probably isn't a good one, judged from most of people experiences' here -and- mine.

But aren't them the same as almost every other job? Every other job would be the same, I believe, saying that learning straight to the workplace is the better part of learning. Once you'll get into the field, your previously-gained knowledge will soon be disproved, warnings broken and boundaries passed. And vice versa.

But I wonder if culinary school is a waste of money altogether... I mean, it's a good place to -learn-. What matters is the will to learn, of course. What matters is each cook's personal goal and determination, yes, but aren't school giving that place to learn?

And OTOH, a huge gap but, would the workplace itself accept people who only has passion and eagerness to learn on their side?

Take a look at: 6 Things Culinary School Won't Teach You - Chef's Blade, it might "open some eyes"!

ooh, it's an interesting article and yes, a good reality check xD

I've seen similar article, about what Celebrity chef didn't / wouldn't tell you. I think it must already been posted here, somewhere... 10 Things Celebrity Chefs Won't Tell You

@Edit : but I digress.

Concerning the initial thread, I'm pretty sure it's just another useful lesson for the hopeful pastry chef and I'm glad the TC had been spared from losses. >_>;

Thing is, cooking is a very hands on job and one that is also very intuitive... as are many of the other arts/crafts. You can start work at a restaurant knowing nothing and peel some carrots, but to step straight into an engineering firm or a software development studio is a much different matter.

I agreed with you completely. It still sounds pretty risky and somewhat scarier though, the way I imagine it : say, someone with eagerness to learn and -did- learn but didn't have the backing up of a basic cookery skill.

I imagined an angry Gordon Ramsay. >_>;

Of course, it's not the case most of the time, and there are various sources...
hmm. In the end the fault is at the person themselves and their unwillingness to learn from workplace, the way I see it.

Yes and No.....

Look, it is the school's mandate to teach, and it is the workplace's mandate to make money. Never foreget that.

There are restaurants that, say... will roast a prime rib rare, and then slice portions off, toss them in a pie plate with a little jus, and fire it off to the desired doneness. Not exactly by the book, but it is profitable, and it works. (sorta) Or instructing staff that "sauteing" actually means to toss watery aenemic pasta in tinned pasta sauce in a saute pan, or making "omelettes" on the flat-top, or.....

A school might teach about cooking, but forget to teach about planning ahead, economy of movement, or such mundane, everyday things such as cleaning a flat top--safely, cleaning out a fryer, or how exactly to operate a dishpit.

If you rely on one variety (school or the workplace) too much, you never get the proper balance. Each is important.

Hope this helps

i just have to get this out. one of my assistants drives me nuts. the worst thing that happened was when she was using a machine to grate carrots for carrot cake. the head chef saw her somehow get metal shavings in the cake and told her to start over.... of course i was confident that she could make carrot cake, so i wasnt babysitting her. when the chef told me, and when i found out that she DIDNT remake the cake, and the metal shavings were in the cake baking... i knew there was no future for her in this industry.
and she has the nerve to talk bad about me on her facebook page, where anyone can read it. these fresh culinarians think they are masters at their craft, and its really sad when they dont even know how to rewarm some buttercream so its suitable to frost a cake. :crazy: