A new knife debate thread. - Page 2

Tourist stated <<I don't care for chromium oxide, it stains everything like molybdenum disulfide grease ('black moly').>>

It ain't stained any blade on which I've used it. Tourist is wrong. Okay, BDL, not it's your turn to be wrong! :beer:

I've heard from experienced sharpeners that oilstones need not be sopping wet with honing oil AND that one need not apply pressure too firmly while pushing the blade along the stone. High pressure will cause the edge to "curl" back upon itself so therefore medium to medium-light pressure will work best for achieving a good edge.

"Oilstones" are actually best used with water or just dry, not with oil. Waterstones need to be soaked, but it depends on the stone how much soaking is ideal.

Strong pressure is definitely not a good idea: let the stone do the work. If you're not getting adequate results with good technique and low pressure, you're using too fine a stone.

Yeah, thru years of experimentation, I, too, find that dry with medium pressure is the key, indeed. Although being well aware of the benefits of quality waterstones, I'll continue to use my oilstones for they work adequately for me. ...'luv my Norton 12 inch Combo India that came in its own metal case that serves as a sharpening tray.

And why water and not oil, pray tell?

I'm not an expert on this, but BDL -- who is -- says that the hard-core "oilstone" lovers find oil clogging the pores of the stones, and apparently also trapping the swarf and such in the process, which makes the stone grind unevenly. To get rid of it, you have to clean the stones with kerosene, boil them, and so forth. This doesn't happen when you use the stones dry or with water.

I find that a liquid layer floats the particles off the stone and onto the table (surrounding area). Screw the kerosene cleaning and boiling. Mixing kerosene with the oil solves all and the thinner mixture results in a better edge on the blade.

Pressed Rat and Warthog (E. Clapton) or pressed grit, it's all the same unless a genuine Arkansas ranging from fine to surgical. I'd really like to find a surgical stone somewhere or something comparable to it in order to apply a fine shine to the blade.

Hmm - I thought the tag line of this forum was "a food lover's link to professional chefs''

This goes back to that scaling down stuff again Chico :bounce:. At least as a home cook, I don't see why there's any practical need to spend 'A few hundred bucks, at least based on a non specific term like 'better'.

My working definition of knife debates: A method by which 100 hobbyists with differing opinions on 'the better knife', can safely share a small room while armed to the teeth and know there's no danger - because somehow everyone will walk away happily knowing they were right. :D

Unless you're a knife hobbyist, I'd have thought most home cooks that dip into this section are looking for advice on 'intelligent knife ownership'. Help with identifying the sweet spots that represent the balance between practical need and cost.

As per my definition above, you'll understand I don't think 'better' is necessarily a useful term when talking about knives. I would expect that terms like 'fit for purpose' can be more easily encapsulated, but that needs the person seeking opinions to frame their requirements:-

What's it for, how do they work with knives, why aren't they satisfied with their present arrangement, how do they care for knives etc...

Then you can look at the way the individual outlined their needs and approach, and hope to identify a range of options from within which you may suggest that one or more may be a 'better' choice for that person.

Chico, I love your energy and you've spoken before about the way in which the user approaches the mindset of making these choices. From what I read, you tend towards higher end purchases mean reduced limitations, better psychological state, and better outcomes.

Consider a cook who spends money on a high-end knife which they may or may not feel able to care for properly, and who then after reading further begins to believe it was additional money spent unnecessarily. I doubt it will put that cook mentally in a better place than the one whose choice though less expensive, is when scrutinised from a practical standpoint, a more appropriate purchase for their needs and ability to maintain it's care to a practical standard.

I agree if you cheap out and buy rubbish because you don't care, then your results will reflect that. Otherwise I think the knife will ultimately reflect your approach rather than necessarily define it.

Hall's Pro Edge, Arkansas Stones Arkansas Sharpening Stones Natural Native Stones , has the best surgical black Arkansas stones I've ever used or seen. They're as good as Norton transluscents. Hall and Norton transluscent stones are both also very good -- but too pricey for what they are. Norton blacks are extremely expensive and pretty much unavailable. I wouldn't bother with Dan's or any other brand.

A finishing stone like a surgical black or transluscent is quite dense, doesn't load up easily, easy to clean, and only requires flattening a couple of times a lifetime if that much.

However, considering the price a good Arkansas stone costs, if you're in it, you're in it partly for the nostalgia, partly for the hobbyism, and partly because you really hate flattening. That is, none of these stones polish as quickly nor as well as a Shapton Pro 5000# and certainly not as well as an Arashyama/Takenoko waterstone. From a pure performance or performance/value standpoint, I'd go with the Arashyama/Takenoko (same stone under either name, even though the Takenoko is listed as being a finer grit) stone over any Ark.

If you're finest stone to date is something like a fine India (the red surface on a Norton combination stone) you'd serve yourself well by buying an intermediate stone at the same time you buy the black. I suggest a soft Arkansas, also from Hall's.

With Arkansas stones: Don't buy "combination" stones. They are held together with glue and can eventually separate. When you buy an Ark, you're buying for the long term.. Do buy at least 3/4" thick. If you're buying an 8 x 2 x 1 (or 3/4) spend the money on a Norton "sharpening station." If you have the space for it, buy a 10" or 11" long stone, they make sharpening go faster, as does a 3" wide stone.

I run my soft Arkansas through the dishwasher after every multiple-knife sharpening session. I clean it with water, scouring powder and a brass (barbecue) brush when it starts looking really dirty -- after three or four sharpening sessions. I never scour the black, but run it through the dishwasher at the same time I do the soft because it's convenient. You could get away with cleaning it less frequently.

My experience is that even the best modern soft Arkansas is going to take some time to "open up." That is, they'll all be frustratingly slow the first few times you use them. But once you wear the lap off the stone, they're OK -- if not as good as the stones sold twenty five years ago.

The actual abrasive material in any Arkansas stone is a chert mineral called novaculite. The difference between grades is in the amount of novaculite and the density of the sedimentary matrix holding it. The reason I recommend Hall's is that the quality of Arkansas stones varies depending on the quarry and vein from which they were taken. Hall's leases a deposit on federal land which is not nearly as picked through as Norton's St. Gobain quarry, Dan's or the other major producer whose name escapes me (it doesn't sell under it's own name, but is responsible for the best "house" brands sold by woodworking, razor and music stores).

I also recommend Hall's for customer service.

That said, Norton makes wonderful sharpening materials generally, and excellent Arkansas stones in particular. Dan's are very good stones, too, as are the good house brands.

Any more questions? Just ask.
BDL

Why I don't use oil (and very little, if any, water)

Chris was right, as far as he went, about why not to use oil or water. However he left out one of the major reasons. That is, any fluid will act as a lubricant, and slows down the abrading process. Oil lubricates more than water, and should be avoided for that reason alone. The more strokes it takes to shape the edge on a given stone, the more opportunities to get it wrong. This is a big problem for freehanders, perhaps not as much as for people using guides.

Oil, even oil thinned with kerosene, spirits, or whatever, will mix with swarf and clog a stone much quicker than water; and very much quicker than dry or near dry. Any liquid (including water) will float the swarf and the particles of matrix and abrasive which come from the stone. Let's call it "gunk." When you push this gunk up and down the stone, you press it into the stone's pores, in effect filling the holes with a sort of plaster. It's called "clogging." Clogging changes the character of the stone's surface, and for the worse at that. It's not a big deal with waterstones because waterstones are made with much softer matrices. Their surfaces are designed to wear as they're used, constantly exposing fresh abrasive. (That's not entirely positive, though. Because waterstones do wear they dish and need flattening; and also get used up and need replacing). Worse still, if the gunk is left to dry, it clogs something awful. Not to belabor the point or anything but oilstones tend to clog easily anyway. You don't have to flatten or soak them, but you do have to keep them clean in order to have them work well -- if at all.

Moving along with the parade of horribles, the gunk has a tendency to crawl up the knife above the bevel shoulder and create scratches on the knife face.

On the other hand, floating the gunk with water as you sharpen makes it easier to get off with frequent rinsing. But to my mind, dry and near dry are sufficiently more efficient that it's worth the tiny bit of extra trouble to brush and rinse the gunk off and blot the stone dry during the sharpening process. Sometimes however, I do sharpen with a water spritzer because I like to screw around with this stuff. As in, I'm male and it's a hobby. It also keeps me in touch with how the stones perform wet as opposed to dry.

It's easy enough to find out for yourself. There are plenty of old fine India stones wrapped in oily rags -- black and completely clogged. Try sharpening it with it; then soak the old stone in kerosene overnight; soak it in water to get rid of the kerosene; run it through the dishwasher; clean it with a metal bristle brush and scouring powder; run it through the dishwasher a few more times; and try dry sharpening. Then tell me about the wonders of honing oil.

For a really good discussion of dry sharpening, look for Jim Juranitch's book. It's available online and at most libraries. It was an article by Jim that got me to try dry sharpening.

BDL

The Norton India I have is a combo of coarse and fine (orange color) grit and came in its own metal container affixed with rubber "legs".

Compounds

I don't use compounds much since I stopped shaving with a cutthroat (or at all) -- many years ago.

I tried spray on diamond at a (woodworking) friend's house -- wow! He says the paste diamond compounds are worse than chromium dioxide as to mess. Chromium dioxide works extremely well, but as Chico said is very messy. I've tried using the wet compound (HandAmerican) with a little dry powder on top -- ala Japanese Knife Sharpening -- and thought it worked better and was a lot easier to control than simply loading a strop with powder. .

That said, the level of polish to be had with compounds, finer than 1/2 micron, while useful for razors, is a waste for almost all culinary knives. Basically it's a combination of hobbyism and overkill. Board contact dings the knives, and kitchen work scratches them too quickly for that level of polish to be meaningful. You might be able to make a case for a knife used exclusively for raw fish or some other specialized application in which you needed an extremely clean cut.

BDL

Combination Norton India Stones

IMO the Norton coarse/fine India is one of the best stones ever made. Your 11" stone is a Norton IM-2 -- widely available on the net. It's length is nice, so is the extra 1/2" width. It's dimensions make it work faster than any "standard" 8 x 2 -- even a coarse silicon carbide. The only drawbacks to an IM-2 are that's a bit more expensive than smaller aluminum oxides ("India" is Norton's trade name for their aluminum oxide stones) and silicon carbides (Norton calls theirs "Crystolon), and harder to store. Also, aluminum oxide is very slow when it comes to knives at HrC 59 or harder. If you've got the room and knives which can use it, it's a first choice. Also really nice is the box/sharpening stand. Another first choice.

I recommend the 8" version, the IB-8, to anyone who can use an aluminum oxide (India) stone as the most cost effective and versatile stone there is. It's also very easy to store, and Norton makes a wonderful, 8" plastic box/sharpening stand. I use Indias myself: A coarse India for profiling and repair, and a fine India to establish the initial edge and/or pull the first wire. While I have 11" separates, most often I go to my IB-8 because it's small enough to store in a kitchen drawer along with my Arks.

You got yours from The Best Things, no? I think they're the only ones selling the metal box/stand along with an IM-2.

BDL

PS. We're referring to the same Norton fine India. What you call "orange," I call "red." to be accurate, if falls between; and in your favor, is a bit closer to reddish orange than to orangish red.

Shortly most of my stones will be taking a kerosene bath!!! But what about my much smaller stones called slips and files that I use for gunsmithing (they measure 4" x 1/2" x 1/2")? Should they be 'watered' as well?

BDL stated: <<You got yours from The Best Things, no? I think they're the only ones selling the metal box/stand along with an IM-2.>>

Got mine (both the stone and metal case) directly from an abrasive supplier called Kennametal for the whopping price of $80, way back in 1995. Think I paid too much? Awww sh*t, way too much after perusing The Best Things. 8(
Also the grit on my stone is coarse/fine and the stone they offer is medium/fine (it's actually coarse/fine based on description given at the Norton website).

Also I've achieved better edges using less oil and therefore drier stones than when they're sopping wet. Water as the solvent along with a much drier stone sounds like a much better way to go.

BDL stated: <<run it through the dishwasher; clean it with a metal bristle brush and scouring powder>>

Should dishwasher soap be used when running the stone thru the dishwasher?

BDL stated: <<Also, aluminum oxide is very slow when it comes to knives at HrC 59 or harder.>>

Does anyone know the hardness of my older Sabatiers (at least 20+ years old) and my 1976 (purchased then) Henckels model 31061-260mm 10" No Stain Friodur made in Solingen?

Trust Norton on this (but not on Arkansas stone grits). The coarse India is about the same grit level and speed as the medium Crystolon -- around 180# ANSI. That's probably the source of the coarse/medium confusion. You'd have to write to The Best Things and ask him. The owner is incredibly honest and will give you a straight answer. I don't believe Norton (aka St. Gobain) in it's entire history ever sold a combi medium/fine India.

Absolutely. Once the stone has been soaked in kerosene, water, scoured, and is fairly clean it can be run with a regular load. The swarf which comes off won't hurt anything. The stone can also be boiled clean in a pan with a little dishwasher machine detergent. It's a bit of a PITA, but if you want to know how ask me.

Rockwell hardness of the Sabs depends on which Sabatier. Different companies hardened to slightly different levels. My guess is that they're nominally around 55-56, but act more like 56-57. Rockwell hardness of mid-seventies Henckels stainless is nominally right around 55, but the knives act more like 53 or so. That said, don't be fooled by Rockwell numbers. The real test is whether they can hold a 15* edge angle. Sabs can, old Henckels, Wusties, etc., are problematic.

As to which stones are appropriate: If you can sharpen on India you can sharpen on Arkansas as well. No problem there. That said, the choice of India and Arkansas over waterstones is not a "performance" choice. Waterstones are better performers -- but they do need more maintenance and lack the nostalgia. "Not your father's stones," as it were.

BDL

I'll stick with oilstones since they're all I know.

BDL stated: <<That said, don't be fooled by Rockwell numbers. The real test is whether they can hold a 15* edge angle. Sabs can, old Henckels, Wusties, etc., are problematic. >>

Not so with my older Henckels. For the first time I held it a around 15-20 degrees over my dry and unoiled bench stone and got the best edge I ever achieved on that blade. Henckels couldn't have done any better on that edge.

Aw ****, I'll teach my knife and stone to work FOR ME rather than the opposite! That stone will, indeed, work for me and I don't work for it. NO WAY!!!!! 'Time to get downrght brutal and scrape that ol' edge along a dry freeway.

Upgrading seems a reasonable description Chico. It seems on occasion to be an angst ridden process though and I'm not sure why. I assume most folks in our respective countries just buy the knives they need, or get them as wedding presents etc. and go on about their business without ever worrying about it.

I know that unlike a working chef, I won't be prepping veg for a 12 hour stretch etc... I get that. On the other hand, the new chef spends hours identifying the perfect knife - lashes out a reasonable sum ensuring it's of good quality, well balanced, meets the criteria for sharpening preferences etc.., and is then advised not to take it into the work environment in case it 'walks'. :D

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely appreciate the value of finding the right knife, the 'keeper' as it were - it's great when that sort of thing happens. A beautifully finished higher value piece is a treat to see, and the depth that you guys bring to the subject is impressive. Nothing I have to say about making practical choices should be interpreted as belittling the skill and craft of the devotee.

At the moment though, I'm awaiting a lowly Victorinox 20cm Chefs Knife Broad Blade. I think that should be an acceptable working knife, and something that I can practice sharpening with to my hearts content without worrying about ruining it. I see it as a practical jumping off point, but if it turns out that it 'fits' then I won't worry if I'm still using the same knife a decade from now.

On the other hand, I bought my Mum a small set of Global knives as a present last Christmas. Between worrying about cutting herself and/or the fear of damaging the knives, they have yet to see any service.

Tourist stated: <<A thief is the lowest form of life. He steals from his fellow workers. He trades on their good will and their trust. And while I enjoy the conveniences of modern life, like the invention of electric starters, I sure wish older values still existed. >>

THIS is what the internet is for and I've exposed many a thief and low-life using it.

Now back to oilstone cleaning. My question: what kind of wire brush is used for cleaning the stone once rinsed in kerosene? Brass or steel?

Yes, I own that exact hammer, too, and its appearrance shows it! So it's a brass brush that's called for. THANKS!

And I've literally worn out Snap-On and Brownell's catalogs simply by looking at them!