Yikes!
Talk about being taken to task! And my, I haven't been called a "fanboy" since my early days of discussing AD&D 2E vs AD&D 3E!:roll: Allow me to make my case and perhaps thaw your chilly opinion of me.
For starters, you're misstating my quote, deliberately I imagine. But no matter- you'll recall the title of my thread was "Japanese knives are not for everyone..." I've copiously pointed out that they're more delicate and not appropriate for those who don't take the time to educate themselves about the differences between J's and typical Western blades. It's just that type of misinformation I'm trying to dispell; my point isn't to perpetuate the tired "German vs Japanese" debate that you're trying to keep alive.
Ah, the "fanboy" crack...Well, perhaps I'm guilty as charged!:lol: Few people have the fervor of a convert. Of course, before I was a
J-Knife Fanboy I was a working chef using Germans, ranging from Wusthof and Henkels to G-types that aren't technically German (like Forschner, Dexter, etc). My first "good" knife was an 8" Wustie. Matter of fact, I still have it today. When first confronted with powers of the J, I went thru the Kübler-Ross...but I'm open minded enough that I reached acceptance faster than some.
Again, you're changing the meaning of my statement by leaving off the last part. You accuse me of painting with too broad a brush, but you do so with a "straw man" argument. I never said "a German Chef's knife can't do anything as well as a Japanese Gyuto", but you're pointedly implying that I did. But I said no such thing.
I dunno. Chipping with J-knives is more common among nOObs that don't appreciate that a Gyuto and a Chef's Knife aren't the same things. Um, you do realize they're aren't, right?
Just like you're gonna smoke the clutch until you master a stick, you're gonna chip thin, hard knives til you stop cutting frozen food, chopping thru bones, etc. Fixing your technique greatly mitigates the problem. Still, I disagree with your statistics. I've seen plenty of chipped edges in my day, and I'm not talking J's. And I think rumors of Japanese chippiness are exaggerated...but yeah, it's definately more of an issue with J's.
BUT, rolled edges are
verrrrrry common with G's. And I'll agree with BDL- a badly rolled spot if just a chip that didn't fall out. A bad, deep roll will weaken the edge steel to the point where all you can effectively do to fix it is grind out that part of the blade.
**** right! But not because they're German- it's because, by and large, being a line cook and being a good sharpener aren't remotely related. You're experiences may be different than mine but I've known maybe 3 cooks in my life that were really knife nuts, and maybe one that really knew how to sharpen a knife professionally. I've had a lot of guys work for me that graduated good schools, and what passes for knife and/or sharpening knowledge is flatly scandalous!
Besides, consider this- before he retired and turned his attention to sharpening professionally, my Dad spent 40+ years doing construction, much of it with his own small construction firm. He appreciated the value of quality tools but do you think he even once considered creating a clawhammer forum? Or sat in his chair polishing his spirit level to a satin sheen? **** no! They're tools. That's the view most cooks I've known have- their knives, if they even own their own, are simply tools. Only we rare few hold them as objects of fetish. Most kitchen guys and gals take their knives for granted.
But I see this less with J-knife users, and I'll tell you why I think this is (although you're not gonna like it!:lol
. Almost no Western cook starts out with Japanese knives- one usually comes to them through a process of learning. Often they like knives and actively learn about them; the types, how to sharpen, etc. Once one starts using them one usually either abandons them in frustration over damaging one or being unable to keep them sharp, or one tends to adopt them fairly enthusiastically. The J-knife is the tool of an
enthusiast; therefore they tend to better maintained that those who view knives as hammers and saws for the kitchen.
Ouch!:lol: I dunno, maybe you're right. But considering that he did a ton of damage despite my tutorials, either I should've harped more or he should've listened better. There's a reason people still cut their toes off with lawnmowers and fall off the top "this-is-not-a-step!" of stepladders. It concerns that trait that a well known comedian says can't be fixed.
I'll allow that that it might have been a error to think he understood the proper use of the knife; that's the only way I meant I gave him too much credit. Maybe I should have provided a few hours of training? Still, in my defense my only crime was selling him a fine knife for about 40% of it's value.
Hmmm...a broken tip is the result "only the result of extreme negligence" yet chipping a J-knife isn't? That would depend on the degree of chipping, I guess. Still, at the risk of sounding gauche, and with apologies, I have to ask- have you ever used J-knives extensively? Do you own any? Some of your statements don't seem to correspond to the reality I've encountered in daily kitchen life. My roll is comprised nowadays almost completely of Japanese steel and has been for quite some time. I'm speaking from experience- from what place are you speaking?
I realize that was directed at BDL, but I'd still like to address it. I'm not sure how long he was a chef but it was a good long while at some good places (iirc he left it all behind for the glamorous life of a lawyer...). First off, congrats on 30 years! It's quite an accomplishment to reach that level of seniority without becoming a raging alcoholic or convicted felon!:lol: For my own part I've spent over 20 years in the trenches. That said, I recall the story of the proverbial guy with 50 years experience that really learned everything he knew in the first year and spent the next 49 repeating it. No, no, that's not an insinuation, but I'm frankly stunned if you spend 30 on the line (as opposed to 25 in the office) and never saw chipping! That truly astounds me! It leads me to hazard a guess that I've handled about 15 miles more German steel in my 20 years than you have in your 30!:lol: And most of that was before my Dad hung out his shingle as a pro sharpener. Some of the steel a pro sees would straighten your curlies!:roll:
I too have heard that rumor, and I'm of two minds. First off, I've owned (and still do own) a number of Hattori's. Personally I haven't found them any more liable to chip than any similarly constructed knife (ie suminigashi-style, San-mai construction with a V-Gold 10 hagane). Part of this may be because I was pretty familiar with the breed before I ever bought a knife of that level. Could be I "got lucky". My other thought is that, next to Shun, Hattori is among the most famous & popular brands of Japanese knife. They sell a lot of HDs, many of those to punters & pikers stepping up from G's for the first time. People are generally more apt to have problems with their first ones, til they learn the proper care & feeding. Along the same lines, a more popular item will naturally generate more complaints. Think Ford or GM- if there cars where as bad as you hear, they'd be teetering on the brink of bankruptcy right now! Oh, wait...bad example!:lol:
[NOTE: That said, even among 'fanboys' the HD line has a rep for being easier to chip than, say, an Akifusa or Aritsuga].
This is where you really misunderstand me. To compare a Wustie with a gyuto is pointedly not what I said. In fact, this is the exact quote (the only change being formatting emphasis for clarity):
The simple fact is, there is no such thing as a Chef's Knife in the lexicon of Japanese knives. I think you're perhaps confusing them due to the similarity in shape between it and the gyuto. The closest match for a Chef's Knife in current Japanese manufacturers Western lines would be the
Western Deba, not the gyuto. You wanna compare a German truck to Japanese car. If you want to compare the Wustie to a good Western Deba, feel free to lay down your C-note.
Therein lies the problem, and the reason for this post: your ignorance (no offense meant) mirrors that of most guys. A gyuto isn't made smash garlic or walk across a cutting board any more a
Suzuki Hayabusa was made to Motocross, or than a bottle of
Chateau Petrus was vinted to make Saurbraten. Subjecting an instrument like a gyuto to frozen chicken legs is like subjecting a Wusthof Chef to chopping coconuts or battonning firewood. A fair comparison can only be made by evaluating each Wustie knife (of various patterns) to its' Japanese counterpart designed for the same use. Fillet knife to deba or yanagiba. Boning knife to Honesuki. Chef Knife to Western Deba or Chinese Cleaver. Carving knife sujihiki. So on and so forth. Until you're prepared to do that, my wallet is standing pat.
In this I'm in complete agreement. I'm going to hazard a guess that I've used roughly the same amount of German knives as you but an order of magnitude more J-knives than you have. Would I be close to the mark? I say this because I've never met anyone who's given them an honest and thorough test and failed to come away impressed. And if you had, you'd see that my statement was less sweeping than you first implied, and what's more contains no hyperbole whatever. In fact, it's recognition of just those facts that leads me to conclude that they're not appropriate for those users not able/willing understand the differences. Those who don't want to learn to use them properly should stick with the training wheels.
[NOTE: Sorry, that was a zinger! Just having a little fun.]
I finally must concede one point: a Wustie is superior as a screwdriver! Hey, I did admit I still have one Wusthof, remember?
Sorry for the length; this is among the longest posts I've ever made, but I think the discussion warranted a thorough reply.:thumb: